M105/M205 Hazing/Marring issues on a Berlina Black S2000 *Pics*

[imported_2wheelsx2]

any one try it yet
http://properautocare.com/blacsheepwas.html (`http://properautocare.com/blacsheepwas.html`)

a black wash mitt :scared no thank you! I have enough problems with my black car, i don`t need a wash mitt to match. How will i see when it gets dirty or what part to rinse off while im washing. Ill stick to the microfiber wash mitt that i use.

[Bobby G]

I have one. I was joking with Terry from CMA asking him if it was really cut from black sheep. I`ll tell ya, though, it`s the softest darn think I`ve ever felt. And, yes, I use it on my black car. No problems so far... :up

[69-912]

Maybe the "Black Sheep" part means it came form an out cast reject sheep? :eek:

[MikeLS]

I knew there would be a use for all those cloned sheep!



Honestly, I don`t think I`d want to use a black mitt for washing. How can you tell if it`s dirty or has particulates imbedded. Sometimes I find these small particles in my white Viking mitts, so I imagine you would run a greater risk using black.

Dave`s cars never get dirty enough to see the dirt on the mitt anyway :p. Good job Dave! :up

[CarbonCrew]

I`ve posted this on the Meguiars and S2000 forums and after doing some reading I found this fantastic forum. There seems to be a loto of experience and knowledge here in regards to the M105/205 combo, so I wanted to run this little problem by you guys.

I bought a 2006 Honda S2000 that has a ridiculous amount of heavy swirls and scratches for it`s age/mileage. I bought the M105/205 combo when I bought the car, but was immediately frustrated with the M105 and I went back to my M80/83 with decent results. After doing a lot of reading, I think I`ve found my problem with the M105 and I gave it another shot this weekend.

With my Dual Action Polisher, I made a passes with M105 on a Lake Country Orange, light cutting pad (Speed 6), followed up with M205 on a Lake Country White, polishing pad (Speed 4). The results are MUCH better than I was expecting and I`m pretty pleased thus far. However, I`m having hazing issues that I can`t resolve.

I later attempted a few passes with the M205 on a Lake Country Black Gray, finishing pad. While better, I`m still having the hazing issues.

I have an idea as to what I may try next, but I wanted to get some opinions or suggestions first. Please let me know what you think.

Here are some pictures of the progress:

Before

http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu103/ElectronMan_photo/photo1.jpg



After Passes with M105 Orange/M205 White

http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu103/ElectronMan_photo/photo2.jpg



After M205 with Gray Pad

http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu103/ElectronMan_photo/photo3.jpg




Thanks for the help!

[Todd@RUPES]

I`ve posted this on the Meguiars and S2000 forums and after doing some reading I found this fantastic forum. There seems to be a loto of experience and knowledge here in regards to the M105/205 combo, so I wanted to run this little problem by you guys.

There is a lot of experience here on our humble forum, so welcome and lets see if we can help!


I bought a 2006 Honda S2000 that has a ridiculous amount of heavy swirls and scratches for it`s age/mileage. I bought the M105/205 combo when I bought the car, but was immediately frustrated with the M105 and I went back to my M80/83 with decent results. After doing a lot of reading, I think I`ve found my problem with the M105 and I gave it another shot this weekend.

With my Dual Action Polisher, I made a passes with M105 on a Lake Country Orange, light cutting pad (Speed 6), followed up with M205 on a Lake Country White, polishing pad (Speed 4). The results are MUCH better than I was expecting and I`m pretty pleased thus far. However, I`m having hazing issues that I can`t resolve.

M105/M205 can definitely be *different* to use, but the abililty to remove defects quickly really gives it an advantage over the old 83/80 combo. I`m glad, by refining your techniques, you where able to achieve better results!


I later attempted a few passes with the M205 on a Lake Country Black Gray, finishing pad. While better, I`m still having the hazing issues.

I have an idea as to what I may try next, but I wanted to get some opinions or suggestions first. Please let me know what you think.

The pics do show a dramatic improvement, but the hazing you describe is clearly visible. From the top it is important to note that M205 will not finish 100% on all paint systems, particularly on paint systems that have very soft paint, such as your Honda S2000. Now I am not suggesting you go out and buy another product (yet) because there is still a good chance that you can get M205 to finish out very well.

Let`s take it step by step?

What size pad and backing plate are you using? I ask for reference. I know you are using an LC black pad, but what size and height? Also you want to use the largest backing plate that safely fits the pad. Using a backing plate that is too small is going to quickly limit M205`s ability to finish.

What speed and technique are you using?

Are you priming the pad? What speed? What pressure?

To get the absolute best finish on most paints you are going to want to use a little product, firm pressure, and a short work cycle. Here is why...

A little product- Very soft paints have a tendency to tear away in shards as the abrasives act more aggressive (relative to the soft paint). This means a lot of sharp material has been removed and if it has no place to go it can end up marring the paint. While priming the pad seems to have a lot of benefit, I would try to polish the paint with out priming it first. Start with a bout 5 dime sized dots on a fresh pad and use about 3 dime sized dots after.


firm pressure- Use enough pressure to press all of the pad evenly against the paint. This is because you will get a more even finish across the paint. This is also why a properly sized backing plate makes a huge difference. Much of the orbital motion is lost in the sponginess of the pad. If you reduce pressure as you polish (or don`t use enough) the pad will wobble on itself and the actual orbital motion will never make it to the paint. Don`t bear down on the machine, but enough to make sure it is engaged evenly. A larger diameter or thicker pad will will require more pressure.

what speed- In general you want to use the lowest speed possible (when finishing) that will still allow the pad to spin about 1 time per second). This will depend on pad size and pressure. Usually speed 4-4.5. The reason is this creates a pattern of curly q`s that is favorable to getting a more even finish. (And not using enough pressure prevents the curly q movement from occuring).

keep your work time short (with M205)- As you polish soft paint (even with a fine polish) you are removing more material then the product was designed for (relative). This material can quickly contaminate the polishing surface and create micro-hazing. Since M205 doesn`t need to be broken down (like a traditional polish) you don`t get a better finish by working it longer.

So keep your work time short (to prevent the abraded material from building up). Try 5-10 seconds and wipe off. See how the finish looks. If that doesn`t work, try 5 second (about one pass over the hold area, over lapping). If that doesn`t work try a slightly longer time (10-20 seconds). You might find by playing with work times you will find the combination that works best for your paint. (ie: enough time to refine the surface but not so much that it creates marring)

Also, make sure to keep your pad VERY CLEAN. Brush it out thoroughly after each section or blow it out with compressed air. Again we want to continously remove any abraded material that will cause micro marring.

If you try the above and cannot get the perfect finish then you may want to try another product. First I would try M80 speed glaze and see how that works. I haven`t used it in a long time but I remember getting some light micro-marring on soft paints as well. Then again I didn`t know as much about polishing back then and relatively inexperienced.

The final option (I would exhaust other resources first in order to save money and gain experience) would be to use an ultra fine finishing polish such as Menzerna PO85rd. (http://classic-motoring.stores.yahoo.net/meprfipo.html) This polish is super fine and usually finishes out great on very soft paints.

Remember if you order it from properautocare.com make sure to use your TID forum discount and get 10% off.

[CarbonCrew]

There is a lot of experience here on our humble forum, so welcome and lets see if we can help!

I really do like this forum. There is a lot of solid information without all the noise I see on other sites.

I appreciate the quick response and I`ll do my best to answer the questions accurately.



Let`s take it step by step?

What size pad and backing plate are you using? I ask for reference. I know you are using an LC black pad, but what size and height? Also you want to use the largest backing plate that safely fits the pad. Using a backing plate that is too small is going to quickly limit M205`s ability to finish.

I`m not 100% positive, as I don`t have the pad and polisher in front of me at the moment, but I feel confident that I have the MEG64 backing plate (Meguiars 5" backing plate for their 6.5" pads). For the pads, I`m using Lake Country`s 6.5" Flat Pad which are about 1 1/4" thick.




What speed and technique are you using? Are you priming the pad? What speed? What pressure?

I`m using a speed of 6 with M105 and a speed of 5 with M205. Arm movement is slow as my patience will allow, about 3 inches a second. I`ve been making ~3 passes with the M105 and ~5 with the M205. Prior to use I prime each pad and blot with a MF towel before use. I then lay down a 1-1.5" bead of product which I then work into the paint using just enough pressure to slightly down the rotation of the pad. Nothing excessive.




To get the absolute best finish on most paints you are going to want to use a little product, firm pressure, and a short work cycle. Here is why...

A little product- Very soft paints have a tendency to tear away in shards as the abrasives act more aggressive (relative to the soft paint). This means a lot of sharp material has been removed and if it has no place to go it can end up marring the paint. While priming the pad seems to have a lot of benefit, I would try to polish the paint with out priming it first. Start with a bout 5 dime sized dots on a fresh pad and use about 3 dime sized dots after.

I do fear that I may be using too much product. For some reason, I have this irrational fear of sticking a dry pad to the paint, which leads to a gummy, loaded center pad after only a few passes. When I get home, I`ll definitely give this technique a shot.




firm pressure- Use enough pressure to press all of the pad evenly against the paint. This is because you will get a more even finish across the paint. This is also why a properly sized backing plate makes a huge difference. Much of the orbital motion is lost in the sponginess of the pad. If you reduce pressure as you polish (or don`t use enough) the pad will wobble on itself and the actual orbital motion will never make it to the paint. Don`t bear down on the machine, but enough to make sure it is engaged evenly. A larger diameter or thicker pad will will require more pressure.

With the tools I have described, do you think my backing plate is appropriately sized?




keep your work time short (with M205)- As you polish soft paint (even with a fine polish) you are removing more material then the product was designed for (relative). This material can quickly contaminate the polishing surface and create micro-hazing. Since M205 doesn`t need to be broken down (like a traditional polish) you don`t get a better finish by working it longer.

Again, it appears that my technique may be failing me. I`ll give this tip a shot too.



So keep your work time short (to prevent the abraded material from building up). Try 5-10 seconds and wipe off. See how the finish looks. If that doesn`t work, try 5 second (about one pass over the hold area, over lapping). If that doesn`t work try a slightly longer time (10-20 seconds). You might find by playing with work times you will find the combination that works best for your paint. (ie: enough time to refine the surface but not so much that it creates marring)

Also, make sure to keep your pad VERY CLEAN. Brush it out thoroughly after each section or blow it out with compressed air. Again we want to continously remove any abraded material that will cause micro marring.

I keep my compressor handy during the details and I`m a bit obsessive about keeping the pads clean.



If you try the above and cannot get the perfect finish then you may want to try another product. First I would try M80 speed glaze and see how that works. I haven`t used it in a long time but I remember getting some light micro-marring on soft paints as well. Then again I didn`t know as much about polishing back then and relatively inexperienced.

The final option (I would exhaust other resources first in order to save money and gain experience) would be to use an ultra fine finishing polish such as Menzerna PO85rd. (http://classic-motoring.stores.yahoo.net/meprfipo.html) This polish is super fine and usually finishes out great on very soft paints.

Remember if you order it from properautocare.com make sure to use your TID forum discount and get 10% off. [/FONT][/COLOR]

I probably jumped the gun a bit, but I want this car to bet right, or as close as I can get it. I take a good bit of satisfaction in a job well done, so I went ahead and put in a order with PAC last night for the 85RD, Crimson Pads, and new backing plate.

Thanks again for all of the help. As soon as I get home I`ll be jumping back on the car and I`ll try to follow up with my progress. Please let me know if you have any other suggestions, I would love to hear them.

[Nth Degree]

I think you will be happy with the Po85rd. I often use it to finish on dark cars. Even when I am pretty happy with the results of 205, the Po85rd always gives it that little extra gloss and depth. I then usually finish with BFWD. If it is a garage queen, it then will often get 2-3 coats of BFMS.

I recently detailed a black Acura NSX and couldn`t figure out for a while why I couldn`t get the result I wanted on the doors just under the bend. I finally figured out that it was sanding marks under the clearcoat that were never finished out properly because of the proximity to the bend. Not that this is your problem, but sometimes the key is knowing what results are possible and what can`t be corrected.

[imported_RaskyR1]

The black paint on those cars is known to be very troublesome to finish down on. I think most have found 3M`s Ultrafina (http://www.properautocare.com/3mpeulmapo.html) to work best, applied via rotary.

On my soft Acura paint I also have trouble with faint micro marring and M205, however is seem to finish down very well when applied with a LC crimson Hydro pad (http://www.properautocare.com/hydrocrimson.html).


Cheers,
Rasky

[imported_wfedwar]

I can`t get m205 to finish well with a flex or ro machine on soft paint. It`s much easier with a rotary. On soft paint, I always have to finish with a diminishing abrasive, like fpii, etc.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[Todd@RUPES]

I really do like this forum. There is a lot of solid information without all the noise I see on other sites.

Thank you!




I`m not 100% positive, as I don`t have the pad and polisher in front of me at the moment, but I feel confident that I have the MEG64 backing plate (Meguiars 5" backing plate for their 6.5" pads). For the pads, I`m using Lake Country`s 6.5" Flat Pad which are about 1 1/4" thick.

The 6.5 inch pad size is large for a DA, but with a full sized backing plate you should still get good rotation/action. We generaly recommend 6 inch (5.75 inch) backing plates (http://classic-motoring.stores.yahoo.net/mayoownfl3or.html) for 6.5 inch pads.





I`m using a speed of 6 with M105 and a speed of 5 with M205. Arm movement is slow as my patience will allow, about 3 inches a second. I`ve been making ~3 passes with the M105 and ~5 with the M205. Prior to use I prime each pad and blot with a MF towel before use. I then lay down a 1-1.5" bead of product which I then work into the paint using just enough pressure to slightly down the rotation of the pad. Nothing excessive.

Maybe try just a little more pressure (firm, not heavy) and try speed 4 with the 205. Speed 5 will give you more correction, but since we are just tackling microhaze, speed 4 should be more than enough. Also, like I mentioned, try it with out priming the pad first.





I do fear that I may be using too much product. For some reason, I have this irrational fear of sticking a dry pad to the paint, which leads to a gummy, loaded center pad after only a few passes. When I get home, I`ll definitely give this technique a shot.

When cutting with M105 or even polishing with M205 you want as many abrasives contacting the paint as possible. But since all of the polishing is done and we want as little cut from M205 as possible, we want as little product as possible. In all other situations (except finishing super soft paint) I recommend priming the pad.


With the tools I have described, do you think my backing plate is appropriately sized?

I am not familiar with the backing plate you have. If it is the W67 DA (4.75 inch) backing plate then I would think it is too small. Meguiar`s also makes a 5.75 inch DA backing plate for the Softbuff 2.0 pads, but it`s unique design is almost Softbuff 2.0 pad specific.







I probably jumped the gun a bit, but I want this car to bet right, or as close as I can get it. I take a good bit of satisfaction in a job well done, so I went ahead and put in a order with PAC last night for the 85RD, Crimson Pads, and new backing plate.

To be honest this is probably the best option. While it is probably not impossible to get M205 to the finish you want, it can be quite tricky. PO85rd is far easier (less finicky) on soft paints. I would have recommended this option first, but I always try help by helping people utilize what they have vs. telling them(you) to run out and buy more stuff. Thank you very much for your business!


Thanks again for all of the help. As soon as I get home I`ll be jumping back on the car and I`ll try to follow up with my progress. Please let me know if you have any other suggestions, I would love to hear them.

Please PLEASE keep us informed. I really want to see you succeed in your project and share in the joy of a job well done.

[muttgrunt]

Berlina Black AKA the worst color to work on of all cars. As already stated, invest the money in to 3M Ultrafina AKA Ultrafine Machine Polish. Use it on your DA with a blue LC pad and you should find the results your looking for.


...of course once you sneeze near the finish it`ll be horribly swirled again ;)


-a fellow s2k owner

[CarbonCrew]

A quick update.

After a suggestion from Mike Stoops, I decided to try a pass with Color X. I was really curious as to just how much hazing might have been coming from the M105. I taped off a 2x2 section and using a small amount of product, I made two passes (1 application) with M105 LC White Pad Speed 6. I cut that section in half and made 3 passes (1 application) with Color X on a Meguiars Finishing Pad. Not 100%, as it is challenging at this point just to see the hazing, I have to hold the flashlight at just the right angle. This is very encouraging and I`m anxiously awaiting the 85RD to show up now.

http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu103/ElectronMan_photo/photo6.jpg

Just out of curiosity, I decide to try one more application of Color X
http://i638.photobucket.com/albums/uu103/ElectronMan_photo/photo7.jpg