Prices??

[Bobby G]

Well, I know everyone is just on the edge of their seat wanting to know how these two products compare. So, here are a few of my notes (please don`t ask me which product is better... I don`t want the hate mail!):



For starters, ZFX and BLACKFIRE are both designed to solve the same problem: More Shine, Less Time. Understanding that goal, it is possible to objectively compare the two products so YOU can come to your own conclusions.



All "pure" polymer based sealants require cure time before you can apply an additional coat with good results. Cure time depends on a number of factors, including the amount of solvent used, the type of polymers, and other ingredients used in the emulsion system suspending the polymers. BLACKFIRE and ZSCP (that`s Zaino Show Car Polish) with ZFX go about creating a fast cure time in much different ways.



What does "cure" mean to a polymer? Simple, it means that the polymer molecules have cross-linked to create a strong chain, and that the polymer chain has bonded to your paint`s surface. If the polymers are not cured, applying an additional coat will result in one of two problems: 1) you will not achieve optimum depth and gloss results, or 2) the polish will smear and become difficult to use.



BLACKFIRE is a two step system: polish and sealant. In my testing, I could not detect an “abrasive polishing action� from BLACKFIRE Polish. It does make the paint finish very slick, smooth and shiny. It also appeared to significantly reduce the appearance of swirl marks and has a very mild cleaning ability. It was very easy to apply (I used a foam pad, not terry cloth), and amazingly easy to buff off.



BLACKFIRE Protectant is a polymer sealant. It seems to have a single quality that sets it apart from everything else I’ve used: it cures within minutes, not hours. I applied three coats of BLACKFIRE Protectant to the top of my car yesterday (back-to-back) and three more this morning. Minor scuff marks that I could feel with my finger nail are now only slightly visible, and I can no longer feel them. The finish is clear, bright and does not have streaks.



The traditional Zaino polish system is also two steps: a “polish lock� base coat followed by one of three different polishes (polymer sealants). Using the traditional Zaino system you apply a coat of Z-1 Polish LOK, allow it to dry, they go back over the polish lock with a coat of sealant. After the sealant dries for 30 minutes or more, you buff off the remaining residue.



The new Zaino ZFX sealant additive is supposed to eliminate the initial base coat of Z-1, and eliminate the 12+ hour cure time between coats of sealant. I decided to try ZFX with Z-5, Zaino’s show car polish for cars with swirl marks. To use the product, you squirt two ounces of Z-5 (or the other formulas) into a 2 ounce mixing bottle, then add 3-4 drops of ZFX per ounce of sealant. I added 6 drops of ZFX and shook it like a mad man for two minutes or so while I was getting my towels and applicators out.



I applied three coats of Z-5 with ZFX, back-to-back, on the driver’s side of my car. I gave it about 10 minutes of dry time between coats, following each coat with Zaino Z-6, as directed. The following day, I mixed another batch and applied three more coats. The results are quite stunning. No streaks. Very clear. Very bright.



Here’s how I rate the two products:



Ease of application:

BF: 9

ZFX: 9

Sov: 10



Ease of removal:

BF 9

ZFX 8

Sov 10



Dry time before ready to buff:

BF 1 minute

ZFX 10 minutes minimum

Sov No wait



Gloss after first coat:

BF 7

ZFX 8

Sov 7



Gloss after third/sixth coat:

BF 9/10

ZFX 9/9

Sov 8/8



Depth after third/sixth coat

BF 8/9

ZFX 9/10

Sov 7/8



Clairty after third/sixth coat

BF 10/10

ZFX 10/10

Sov 9/8



Brightness after third/sixth coat

BF 9/9

ZFX 9/10

Sov 8/7

Warmth and Glow after third/sixth coat

BF 8/9

ZFX 7/8

Sov 9/10



Surface static after third/sixth coat

BF 9/8

ZFX 9/9

Sov 8/8



Swirl filling ability after third/sixth coat

BF 6/9

ZFX 7/10

Sov 5/6



As a final note, I did try applying more than three coats of both ZFX and BLACKFIRE in one session. Both products had the same problem: the sealant became difficult to apply and remove.



I have not tried applying and buffing the product with a machine. I will do that next.



:cool:

[DETAILKING]

Just curious.....what color car did you try it on and how did you prep it?



Do both sections of the car look the same color?



Also, can you rate SLICKNESS for us?



Finally, everyone is curious to how the sheeting effect works, so when you wash the car can you give us the scoop on BLACKFIRES sheeting?

[JonB]

David, did you apply the Blackfire gloss/QD product in between coats? Is it adviseabe to do so?



Also, do you feel that ZFX has an improvement in its look over plain Z5, or is it just faster cure time, same shine...?/



H

[imported_nihoole]

Thanks for the info and testing on these products!I can`t wait to here everyones opinons on these two.When you compared the two was it in direct sun, night,or both?Just asking because sometimes in direct sunlight my Zainoed green paint is almost to bright or shiny however you would put it.A night in low to moderate lighting it takes on a whole nother meaning to deep.Thanks again for all your testing and time to let us in on the latest and greatest.:D

[JonB]

I forgot to ask if you were planning on making a comparison test that includes Klasse also. I am going to be stripping Klasse/Blitz from my Mustang and I will give a subjective account as well.



H

[Bobby G]

Black 911S (wide body).



Preped car with clay followed by PPCL.



Slickness is hard to measure, and my neighbors look at me funny when I grope my fenders a lot.



The 911 gets washed on very rare occasions... so I can`t tell you about how the products respond to water.



Color is hard to judge. ZFX is on the side, whereas BF is on top. I don`t have two ajoining panels to be able to make a call.



My shop has 22 florescent bulbs and 12 halogen flood lights (more than 3400 watts in all!). I see everything, and both surfaces look killer.



I did not try the BF spray, because I do not have any. Yes, I would use it between coats. I used a damp MF towel for final wipe down.



Yes, I plan to throw Klasse into the mix soon.



db

[TheKingOfDETAIL]

Looking forward to trying out BLACKFIRE myself, unfortunately I just stocked up on PINNACLE products...so it`ll be awhile ;)

[imported_RIC]

What is SOV? Souveran wax?

[Bobby G]

Yep. I needed a benchmark I was familiar with.



db

[Murcielago]

Well I was wondering what were the average prices you guys charge to detail cars. Like for example 2001 Porsche convertible?

My friend wants a price break down in this categories:

Tires/rims: Clean tires and rims completely and finish with some BF on the rims and Megs Endurance on the tires.
Seats, carpet, dash, door panels, etc: Vacuum, spot clean carpet (since its not that bad), clean and condition leather, scent of his choice.
Glass inside and out: pretty simple here :biggrin: Can I use BFWD on the glass afterward???
Paint: Wash, clay, M105, M205, 2 coats of BFWD, and some Wax on top.
Lights: quick polish
Engine bay: Clean it and some engine dressing
Exhaust tips: Clean off the road grime and some metal polish.

That`s pretty much it, any help would be greatly appreciated.

[muttgrunt]

Many detailers have an hourly rate. Some may have package deals, but when it comes to thorough in-depth cleaning, it`s usually done at a flat hourly rate.

The rate depends on the detailer. What is your time / products worth?

[imported_Flash Gordon]

Many detailers have an hourly rate. Some may have package deals, but when it comes to thorough in-depth cleaning, it`s usually done at a flat hourly rate.

The rate depends on the detailer. What is your time / products worth?


I agree ^ you should also factor in your expeirence level. One person may be able to complete this job in 6-8 hours whereas someone else may require 14-20 hours :scared:

Another thing depends on the area of the country you are in. Fortunately for you, So Cal ppl are use to paying jacked up prices. So as long as your work is superb you should be able to get premium prices :judge:

Having said all that. I would probaly charge around 5 bills, but thats just me :wizard:

Be sure and let us know how it all turns out :toetap05:

Oh, and welcome to TruthInDetailing. Hope to see you around :)

[Puckman]

I agree with Marc and Flash on this, develop an hourly rate if you haven`t done that and work from there.

Based on the work specified that`s pretty much the Full Monty i.e. interior and exterior. I`ll leave it up to you if you want to cut a friend a deal for some good word of mouth advertising but again that`s a full day`s work for me. If your friend specified the process AND products then he knows the amount of work involved. He also, most likely, accepts the fact HE doesn`t have the expertise to effectively apply those products. You do so get paid for it.

Good question and discussion on this helps a good deal of people that may be lurking only! Lots of folks wrestle with this decision. I like Flash`s point of considering your skill level and applying that into the hourly rate equation. I`d be looking at about 12 to 14 hours of work for what you specified but I know there are others in my area that can get better results in less time. They are worth more per hour.

[Murcielago]

Well that`s the thing I have no idea what to charge per hour. I have been detailing my own cars for about 4 years but never looked in to getting paid for it. Friends would ask me how much would I charge them to do their cars since they always seem to like how my cars looked so clean and shine so well :D

So I need some ballpark numbers from you guys and I will take it from there. Oh and another thing since it is a soft top I was thinking of getting the Harrtz RaggTop products for it. So my question for that is how long to let the top dry so that it doesn`t get funny smells later?

[Puckman]

Ok, first thing to do is try to figure out how much the materials and utilities will cost you. Simple math. How much is the bottle of polish? How much of that polish did you use? How much was the machine you`re using and when is it completely useless? How much is it depreciated every time you use it? Ok, you used it once on this job. How much did the buffing pad cost you? What do you think is the life of the pad? Ok, you used that pad on one car and it has 49 cars left before it`s dead (just a guess). Example might be $11.99 / 50 = 24 cents per use. Oh wait, I used 4 pads, that`s $0.96 (or $1.00). Again, fairly simple to estimate the cost of materials. Try to estimate utilities the same way i.e. 1 hour of electricity = $x.xx, 1 hour of water = ?. If you have insurance or other business costs factor them in. Then simply add em all up! That`s your material expense to cover.

Now what do you think your time is worth? Minimum wage (Fed is $7.25, Calif is $8.00)? No, I would argue you have a skill that is certainly above minimum wage but not Todd Helme level (sorry Todd, just borrowing your name to try to make a point). Somewhere between min wage and high level pro detailer is what you need to figure out. Also consider your area`s economics. Try to get to a realistic number for your cost of labor. Might be $15.00 or it could be $60.00. You should estimate that, not us.

Add up the material costs and then add you`re labor rate and you have a good starting point. I have oversimplified the approach but I would suggest you try to break it down like that to give you an idea for an hourly rate.

One thing I will say is never give anything away for free. Cover at least your costs and then lower your labor rate if you want to cut a buddy some slack but even then, get what you are worth!!! A customer has contacted you to perform a service (ok, in this case it`s a friend and that clouds the issue). The service you perform is using materials that have cost you money to acquire and you have a skill that he doesn`t have.