A Plethora of Choices

[EngineerNate]

I was listening to Larry`s podcast and the thoughts below have been rolling around in my head since. Figured I`d get your guys input.

First, current product set: Griot`s BOSS Foam White and Orange pads + Ultimate Compound for correcting and Ultimate Polish + BOSS Yellow pad for follow up polish. Griot`s GG6 Polisher. (Rupes is on the wishlist...) Enjoying the results, but thinking about getting a compound/polish combo I can buy in bulk.

From listening to the podcast, it seems that a lot of the top guys (Larry, KB, JR, etc) use the M105/M205 combo with Meg`s foam and microfiber pads and maybe a Rupes pad thrown in here and there. Reading online, it`s easy to get caught up in the "latest" and greatest when it comes to pads and products. Everyone claims that product x or y makes life 200% easier than the old standby, etc. So in four parts, what I`d like input on, is the following:

1. Do you guys think that these products (105/205 + Megs stuff) are favored because of long time experience with the product, sponsorship, or some combo of the two, or is there something about that combo that when in the hands of a professional results in something that can`t be achieved with other systems, either in direct results or the amount of time invested for them? Is there a significant cost advantage in either the cost of the product/oz or amount of product used vs other systems?

2. There are tons of posts here and elsewhere to the tune of, "Try product X, I know 105 is the standby but product X lets me correct easier and faster... etc." Am I hamstringing my learning or my results by using products that are [reportedly] easier to use? For example, the Griot`s BOSS system has gotten a lot of good word of mouth lately for it`s ease of use and correction ability. Price considerations aside, is there a performance benefit or something valuable about learning the 105/205 system that I wouldn`t get with a product set that`s purportedly easier to use?

3. If you were going to recommend a "system" to someone who hasn`t used a lot of different products and tell them to "go master this before you start trying other things" what would that system be?


4. How do you guys deal with the fact that there are more products available than one person can possibly try/keep track of on a reasonable budget for both money and time? It`s obvious that great results can come from a variety of different systems. How do you choose and decide to stick with one over another? The topic of this post is paint correction products, but this can apply to anything.

TLDR: If 105/205 don`t offer significant results advantages and are purportedly more difficult to use than some of the other popular systems, why is that combo so popular with the professional crowd? Is it simple product familiarity/loyalty, a true advantage in either results or time investment, or something else? Will learning the 105/205 combo make me a better machine polisher (forcing good technique) than another system or will I simply learn the idiosyncrasies of that system?

Cheers,
Nathan

[Dan]

105 and 205 are a great starting point, they are fairly easy to work with and the only real downsides are dust and leftover oils. While there may be better choices for particular jobs, they will give good results on just about anything short of old single stage paint. Meguiars really tailors their products for the middle of the road. If you were doing this as a job, that may be reason to consider alternatives (ie super hard clear or soft paints). Last but not least, buying the consumer versions in UC and Polshing Compound are great too.

[Accumulator]

Engineernate- Welcome to Autopia! I`ll give you my 2¢ and you can compare that with other responses. First, let me say tha 1) I don`t care how products work for other people, only how they work for me, 2) I refuse to struggle to "master" something; it either works with a reasonable (IMO) amount of trying or I`ll want something else, and 3) what works for me might not be right for anybody else.

Hey, Cliff`s Notes version: Just use the GG Boss15 stuff and don`t worry about anything else unless you want to. That said...really long-winded response follows:

This stuff isn`t some Mystical Art or Difficult Skill or anything else like that. It`s pretty straightforward and if you study/think/understand it then getting great results shouldn`t be any huge challenge. Today`s products make the whole "Mastery" concern a thing of the past IMO....*IF* you understand what you`e doing and why. THAT is what I think you oughta emphasize, UNDERSTANDING the subject (like, relative to this Correction subject...when do I use abrasives and why? How much abrading should I do? What kind of abrasives do I think are right for me? What are my actual goals here?) is the important thing. Don`t be afraid to "overthink" it (scare-quotes intentional as I seldom see *too much* thinking going on ;) ).

1) I used the M105/M295 combo enough to come to some firm conclusions, it`s not like I only used a pint or two of each :)

First- these are nondiminishing abrasive products. If you like that (I do), then good, otherwise look elsewhere.

IME both of these work best with the Kevin Brown Method ("KBM") and thus call for a lot of pads (good idea anyhow IMO).

IMO M105 was the best stuff in it`s class when it came out and it`s still a fine choice. It has a very short work-time and although that suits me just fine it bugs many other people. I used M105 as my Aggressive Compound until I tried M101, which I like much better.

M205 is just OK IMO and I don`t like it. Too heavy on the Trade Secret Oils, which I find very hard to fully remove (IPA doesn`t do it for me). It has proven unsuitable for plastic surfaces that I typically use such Finishing Polishes on. It doesn`t leave as nice a finish as some other Finishing Polishes I use (e.g., 3D Polish, 1Z High Gloss). If I didn`t inspect so rigorously, I might think it`s OK and the cars I did with it always looked great to others. And many people here think it`s All That. But I don`t like it.

Eh, just stick with the Griot`s and I bet it`ll all work just fine. I`ve never used them, but others I respect and, more importantly, see eye-to-eye with on this stuff, say they`re good and I bet that`s true.

I wouldn`t let the cost enter into it (though it`s easy for me to spend your money). If something doesn`t do it for you, that money *and all the time you`ll never get back* is wasted. And you probably won`t be using abrasive products very often anyhow.

2) There are plenty of products that are both easy to use and effective (e.g., my preferences mentioned above). If something`s not reasonably easy to use I won`t touch it and I don`t expect anybody else to struggle to master anything these days either. It`s absolutely NOT an either/or situation where you have to trade efficacy for user friendliness.

3) I wouldn`t say that in the first place. No need to "ramp up", just learn to do it right and do that. I`d stick with either the Griot`s Boss15 and their stuff or a polisher like that and the M101/3D Polish (just because those work so well for me).

Unless you want to simply immerse yourself in this and make it a big part of your life, and some folks do indeed enjoy that. How deeply do you want to delve into Detailing? Just want a shiny car or do you want a new hobby/part-time job/etc.?

4) I don`t pay attention to the myriad choices. Unless something needs replaced for some reason I simply don`t care. Eh, that`s probably just me as I`ve been at this for so long, but IMO people get too caught up in the latest Shiny New Thing. Find what works OK for you and use it as needed. With a shop just jam-packed with products, I only reach for a small number of Old Reliables 99% of the time.

Yes indeed, some folks *LIKE* to try new things, and do Detailing work that`s not necessarily must-do. I let those folks beta-test new stuff and I keep an eye peeled in case something sounds worth trying (e.g., the 3D Polish and M101, which I`d been doing OK without but learned about here). I just try to not look for solutions in search of problems. By keeping up with posts here at Autopia, you can stay so well-informed that you wouldn`t believe it! But well-informed doesn`t need to translate into "neck-deep in products you bought".

IMO the M105/M205 *is* a somewhat specific situation where you "learn that stuff". Many of the little tricks don`t apply to other products, especially products with *diminishing abrasives*, which are simply a different ballgame. The KBM uses more product that many/most use with other stuff.

I wouldn`t give much thought to what Pros use. They often have different concerns/constraints than non-Pros. And they do this stuff *all the time* whereas a non-Pro won`t do correction once in a Blue Moon. If you plan to do a lot of this stuff, then that might indeed factor in, but I didn`t see anything in your post about becoming a Pro Detailer and if you merely want to keep the family vehicles in "best in the parking lot, even at a Car Show" condition then...what I posted above. This Detailing stuff can be as much, or as little, of a Big Deal as you want it to be, but your results can be GREAT either way.

[Accumulator]

Just saw your Introduce Yourself post...see you`re doing more than just your own cars, which probably invalidates a lot of what I posted above :o But I still think it`s easy to get too caught up in the Product Choice thing.

How was that M3`s paint? My e36 M3s had some *hard* clear! Harder than my Audis, that`s for sure.

You might oughta look into buying some 3D Pink Car Soap as a replacement for the Gold Class (which I consider mediocre at best).

[EngineerNate]

Just saw your Introduce Yourself post...see you`re doing more than just your own cars, which probably invalidates a lot of what I posted above :o But I still think it`s easy to get too caught up in the Product Choice thing.

How was that M3`s paint? My e36 M3s had some *hard* clear! Harder than my Audis, that`s for sure.

You might oughta look into buying some 3D Pink Car Soap as a replacement for the Gold Class (which I consider mediocre at best).No worries, it was still a good perspective!

I`m only using the gold class because I have it and since both of those cars got clayed+correction+protection afterwards the wash choice wasn`t a big deal. The smell of it *is* the smell of car washes from my teen years though.

I was going to reply mentioning that I was doing other cars but you beat me to it! It was kind of a happy accident that I got to do the M3 and it`s just kind of built from there. I really enjoy the work and it`s a nice break from my day job. I`ve bought a domain name and everything so I can try to do more and look "professional" with it.

The M3 paint was pretty hard by my limited experience. I almost skipped the second step because it was finishing out it great with the orange pads and UC.

EDIT-I`ll look into that wash. I was planning on trying duragloss next.

Thanks!
Nathan

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[Mike lambert]

I used meguiars for at least 15 years, trained with both Kevin Brown and Larry. Do yourself a favor and go with Griot`s. They use sub micron abrasives which do not diminish and work as long as you need without dust, or the need to spray with water! As far as machines, we`ve gone all Griot`s after using Rupes since they`ve been here. In my opinion more power and a better warranty. Go with both the 5 inch plate on your current machine and the 3 inch and all the boss pads. Product wise, fast cut cream, perfecting cream and finishing sealant should work just fine.

[Accumulator]

Mike lambert- Heh heh, though I`ve patronized GG since forever, your take on their current line of Correction Products certainly got my attention! Next time I`m shopping...

Their 3" must be a lot better than the previous version...both of mine were, uhm...unsatisfactory (though their 3" pneumatic continues to work OK for me). A 3" plate on their GG6 sure does some work though!

I gather the GG products are used sparingly compared to the KBM, right?

EngineerNate- Yes indeed, the scent of long-familiar products can mean a lot; I still like using Meguiar`s M62 wash for just that reason (and, IMO it`s their best one..happy coincidence) even though I now reserve it for wheels/wells/undercarriages. That Duragloss wash gets a *LOT* of positive comments, you won`t go wrong with that one either.

IME the way some aggressive nondiminishing products *apparently* finish out can be deceiving. Looks great, no need for a follow-up, right? BUT...when I got my inspection lighting/environment JUST RIGHT...uh-oh, all sorts of micromarring that I hadn`t seen under less rigorous conditions (because those abrasives that never diminish just keep on cutting...aggressively...even when you`re just buffing them off). Does it matter? Eh, another of those subjective things..but for *this* subject it`s just not good enough :D When I did have the right conditions to show what was really there it was pretty shocking and I`d sure hate to see that when I thought the car was OK (like, under parking lot lights at night).

[EngineerNate]

I used meguiars for at least 15 years, trained with both Kevin Brown and Larry. Do yourself a favor and go with Griot`s. They use sub micron abrasives which do not diminish and work as long as you need without dust, or the need to spray with water! As far as machines, we`ve gone all Griot`s after using Rupes since they`ve been here. In my opinion more power and a better warranty. Go with both the 5 inch plate on your current machine and the 3 inch and all the boss pads. Product wise, fast cut cream, perfecting cream and finishing sealant should work just fine.Is that comparison with the 105/205 combo specifically or the Meg`s compounds and polishes in general? I`ve been getting some comments recommending M100 or 101 in place of the 105 as options that have similar cut but don`t dust like the 105.

I`m not tied to the Griot`s as the only other option either, it was just a convenient example because I`m using their pads already. TBH, I picked the pads over the Meg`s for this round because I wanted to try a pad with the central cooling hole. Having used it, it`s a nice addition, even if only because it makes gripping the pad to position it on the backing plate easy. [emoji16]

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[Mike lambert]

I have not used the Griot`s 3 inch machine, they have a 3 inch plate for the 6 inch machine as well as the new 3 inch boss pads. My comparison is to all the professional compounds and 205

[Mike lambert]

Sorry, yes you use very little product compared to the meguiars weather or not you use Kevin`s method.

[BudgetPlan1]

I used meguiars for at least 15 years, trained with both Kevin Brown and Larry. Do yourself a favor and go with Griot`s. They use sub micron abrasives which do not diminish and work as long as you need without dust, or the need to spray with water!

Did not know that Griots cremes were SMAT; a welcome tidbit of info. Sometimes a prefer SMAT, hence my affinity for M101 and in certain circumstances I`ve actually come to enjoy 205 for what it is.

I think HD Polish+ is SMAT as well; tried that recently and enjoyed it.

Nice to know Griots is another option.

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[Mike lambert]

They are not smat, after working with Jeff Brown , he explained the difference between smat and sub micron. There is a difference in the way they work.

[BudgetPlan1]

They are not smat, after working with Jeff Brown , he explained the difference between smat and sub micron. There is a difference in the way they work.Ahhh...further explanation:

https://www.autopia.org/forums/griot-s-garage/181401-griot-garage-system-creams-sub-micro-abrasives.html



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[Accumulator]

Mike Lambert- I`ll be interested to hear how that 3" unit works for you/doesn`t.

With the HD Cut/Polish, I always went by Fermani`s tips, and yeah...very different from KBM or Meg`s stuff in general. Was curious about your take on it as I`d never experimented much.

BudgetPlan1- Ah, that was the perfect link you provided to clear up the Abrasive Technology Qs!

Hey, now I have another, related Q:

(Noting that I for one find "SMAT" and "SubMicron Abrasive Tech" awfully easy to conflate... :o )

It seems the definition of "micromarring" is, uhm...variable. The stuff shown in that link is a zillion times more serious than what *I* think of as micromarring. SO...I`m wondering about how the submicron abrasives are in that regard *BEFORE* they do their "semi-diminishing" thing. Will they leave micromarring..as in, something that can actually be seen, *but only under specialized conditions*....if the work cycle is interrupted before they`ve been "fully worked"?

[Mike lambert]

I have used the 6 inch machine with the 3 inch pads, does everything the rupes 75 does at a much lower price and better warranty.