Adrenal Response Conditioning vs. Officer-involved Shootings and Police Training

[Setec Astronomy]

I started thinking about training issues when that dash-cam video became public a few months ago where the guy gets shot in the gas station for a seatbelt infraction, but he turns quickly into the car to get his wallet and the cop shoots him thinking he might be coming out with a gun. I thought about whether the cop should have positioned himself in a less vulnerable way so that he could observe what the guy was coming out of the vehicle with before opening fire (and obviously that cop needed more firearms training cuz he fired 4 times from 10-15 feet and only hit the guy once, and he fully recovered from the wound--think about the bystanders who could have been killed by those stray bullets not to mention if the driver actually was a threat which required deadly force and he only got winged).

When I saw the recent South Carolina video (which didn`t capture the initialization of the event), I wondered what was going through the mind of the cop when he shot the guy. I`m sympathetic to the police in these situations because of the "fight or flight" adrenal response, which I think leads to a lot of the, shall we say, rough handling of suspects at the end of a chase. However, in this case (again, we didn`t see the earlier part of the altercation), it would seem that the officer`s response was a little, er, asymmetric.

This got me thinking about Accumulator talking about adrenal response conditioning in the past, as in this thread: http://www.autopia.org/forums/car-driver/88340-91-cadillac-vs-mazda-mpv.html?highlight=adrenal#post947936 where he said:

Thanks, I owe it all to adrenal stress conditioning :bow :bow I can`t say enough about how it can alter/improve how one goes through life. Between RMCAT (http://www.rmcat.com/) and the class I took at Beaverun (http://www.beaverun.com/training.asp#Security_Driving_Course_(SDC)) I pretty much just take care of business whereas before I would have been stressing out/freezing/making mistakes. Probably saved my (and my wife`s) life during the "deer incident".

So this has me wondering whether police officers are given enough training/screening for this. In the old days you couldn`t be a cop if you were a woman, if you were too short, too fat, etc., perhaps today you shouldn`t be a cop if you can`t control your stress response? Or is this situation such a small percentage of cases that this type of training/screening is overkill?

It could be that this cop was just a bad guy--he certainly was (apparently) very quick to back up his story, he was very cool, etc., and unlikely you are going to train/screen out bad guys (except when they get caught on video). So I guess the point is a body cam might deter a bad cop, but it`s not going to effect a cop who can`t control his adrenal response. So do we need better police training/screening or is this simply a human nature issue that we can`t control?

Let`s try and keep this civil or it`s going to be closed pretty quick.

[Pats300zx]

We go through all types of training for cases similar to this. Every quarter we are training on our "Use of Force Continum". I feel that many of these cases are coming to light based on the fact that everyone is walking around with a video camera. I agree that some of the issues that came up in the South Carolina shooting give me shivers. Shooting the subject in the back, moving the taser over the scene after shooting, etc etc. I don`t think that these isolated incidents should be a reflection of law enforcement in general.

[Setec Astronomy]

When I was posting this I completely forgot we had some LEO`s here so that`s great for the discussion!


I don`t think that these isolated incidents should not be a reflection of law enforcement in general.

Absolutely not, Pat.

[GearHead_1]

I`m about as Pro-Cop as it gets. I`ve watched the video several times and in my opinion there is absolutely nothing that could have transpired before the trigger was pulled that could justify this officer`s actions. He may have been in an all out brawl, indeed his life may have been in jepordy only moments before. It seems conceivable that the driver might have went for the officer`s taser as it was on the ground. Should the officer have fired during that struggle his actions would have been completely justified. At the time the officer fired, the victim (for lack of a better word) was in full retreat and unless he was running for a weapon hidden in the tree that onlly he and the officer could see, he was no longer a threat to the officer.

Situations like this should not be used to characterize our law enforcement community as a whole. I really hate to see the race card played. The end result is a man is dead having been stopped for a bad tail light and his insuing actions. I believe this is one of an infinitesimaly small group of really bad officer interactions with the public, but they do happen. I certainlty have to wonder how this shooting would have been reported if there were no video. We do have bad cops that give the entire collective a bad name. It`s such a shame. There`s always the other side of the story and the mindset that says, "Want to live? Don`t fight with or run from a cop". That said, if you`re going to pull the trigger whether you are an officer or a citizen, the threat must be an active threat. I`ve had a little bit of training along the lines of competent concealed carry, just enough to make me aware of the mindset. I have no idea if I were in the same situation and my adrenaline was pumping, I may have reacted the same way. This has to be a training consideration of the highest priority. All in all a very sad situation. Just my .02.

[52split]

I am not going to get into a heated debate, but I "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" is the easiest thing to do. I have been a cop for 16+ years now, and unless you have been in those shoes you just won`t get it. I wish most people could go through a couple F.A.T.S. (simulation type shooting scenarios) scenarios to see how little time is involved.

[GearHead_1]

I am not going to get into a heated debate, but I "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" is the easiest thing to do.

No need for a heated debate. I think this forum can discuss important things in a civilized manner without the conversation going into the cellar. The "Monday Morning Quaterbacking" is simply a matter of opinions being expressed. Everyone gets to have one.


I wish most people could go through a couple F.A.T.S. (simulation type shooting scenarios) scenarios to see how little time is involved.

Hense the need for training so focused as for it to kick in when basic instinct is the first thing out of the box.

[tropicsteve]

it`s hard to know what the officer was thinking when a routine traffic stop is seldom routine. when the violator bailed from the vehicle and started running, was it because he just committed an armed robbery, auto theft, outstanding warrants, or even murder? all were possibilities. the escalation of events due to the resisting of arrest is tragic, but let the investigation and subsequent trial run it`s full course. less than 1/2 of 1% of officers are "bad officers". they will go out of their way to make an example of him for sure. I`m also a disabled/retired officer. my brother is a retired officer, and his son is a current officer as is my son after me.

[JSFM35X]

I have the highest regard for all phases of law enforcement. They have a tough job and it`s compounded by outsiders judging them from their easy chair instead of in the streets under pressure.

That said, there are good cops, better cops and bad cops and crooked cops. Just like grocers, gas station attendants and businessmen.

Split second decisions are required in that line of work and they sometimes are not the correct ones in retrospect but you nor I were in his head when they went down in real time.

Not saying shooting a perp in the back is acceptable.

[ec90]

No need for a heated debate. I think this forum can discuss important things in a civilized manner without the conversation going into the cellar. The "Monday Morning Quaterbacking" is simply a matter of opinions being expressed. Everyone gets to have one.



Hense the need for training so focused as for it to kick in when basic instinct is the first thing out of the box.

I also believe there is a difference between Monday Morning Quarterbacking something and holding someone accountable. Like any job with inherent responsibility, one knows that entering into that profession they are and should be held to a higher standard. This goes for anyone that has lethal responsibility if the time were to come. Allowing civilians to form opinions is the checks and balances behind the system, hence why trials in these cases do not have juries formed of law enforcement individuals only. But at the end of the day it will be interesting to see how it plays out. From an objective point of view, the man running was no longer a threat unless as someone said earlier there was another weapon. I can say as a fact no matter the situation or training beforehand nothing can be simulated to the real amounts of stress and adrenaline in these situations. Does it help? Absolutely, but it is not an exact replica.

If you want to read an interesting book on stress situations check out

The Unthinkable: Who Survives When Disaster Strikes - and Why

[silverfox]

I don`t care if the guy has a rap sheet a mile long...shooting a unarmed man to death in the back while running away from you is murder. And then he leaves the man lying there while he walks away to pick up the taser and then plants it next to the body? No, that cop needs to be made an example by putting him away or executing him. What`s even more sad is that had that video not been taken,, we all know that cop would have probably gotten away with it.

[Trouble]

I am not going to get into a heated debate, but I "Monday Morning Quarterbacking" is the easiest thing to do. I have been a cop for 16+ years now, and unless you have been in those shoes you just won`t get it. I wish most people could go through a couple F.A.T.S. (simulation type shooting scenarios) scenarios to see how little time is involved.

I don`t need to "walk in your shoes" or have any "special training" to know not to shoot someone in the back 8 times over a brakelite being out

I`ve never trusted the police and never will

[tropicsteve]

don`t think that you have all of the answers because you saw a couple partial 5 second video clips on tv and you don`t like the police to start with. if there was a struggle for the officer`s tazer, that was not shown in the videos and don`t think for a minute that an unarmed person can`t kill you. if an officer felt his life threatened during any struggle, deadly force can be used by the officer to stop a fleeing felon. (reality check-people don`t get shot for broken tail lights, but resisting and fleeing arrest for reasons unknown to the officer definitely escalates the danger to everyone and some people will do anything not to be arrested. let the investigation and trial play out and all the facts and evidence are in. if the officer was wrong, he will be held accountable for his actions.

[The Driver]

don`t think that you have all of the answers because you saw a couple partial 5 second video clips on tv and you don`t like the police to start with. if there was a struggle for the officer`s tazer, that was not shown in the videos and don`t think for a minute that an unarmed person can`t kill you. if an officer felt his life threatened during any struggle, deadly force can be used by the officer to stop a fleeing felon. (reality check-people don`t get shot for broken tail lights, but resisting and fleeing arrest for reasons unknown to the officer definitely escalates the danger to everyone and some people will do anything not to be arrested. let the investigation and trial play out and all the facts and evidence are in. if the officer was wrong, he will be held accountable for his actions.

I 10000% agree, bottom line if you weren`t there your input is irrelevant. People forget its not their ass on the line, just like the media... So quick to judge, never quick to offer a solution. Our officers have families too and want to get home safe at the end of the day. They`re not some mindless drones for the state like the liberals like to play it. How`s about showing all the volunteer work they do like pal. They made my childhood better for sure.

[The Driver]

I don`t need to "walk in your shoes" or have any "special training" to know not to shoot someone in the back 8 times over a brakelite being out

I`ve never trusted the police and never will

There are good and bad in every sector, if you think they are all one or the other your either dumb or naive.

[Ronkh]

There are good and bad in every sector, if you think they are all one or the other your either dumb or naive.

A lot more tactful than I would have been.

Thank you