Zaino + Zymol

[CorruptedSanity]

Hi everyone.



I found a detailing place that has Zaino products.



I want to let them polish my black car. Its new (about 3,000 miles now). It has abit of swirl marks.



Does Zaino have a product that acts like the final wax from Zymol?



I have Glasur that I want to use on my black car.



When should I use it?



Before Z-CS? Or skip Z-CS because I am sealing with a wax?

[Dan]

Glasur is fine on its own as is Zaino Z2 or Z5. I`d pick one and do two coats vs layering.

[CorruptedSanity]

Hi Dan,



Why not layer?,

[Accumulator]

Why not layer?,



Layering can be trickier than one might think.



I`ll let Dan comment on layering Zaino (I`ll sometimes do *MANY* layers with purely synthetic sealants, not that I`ve used Zaino..) but with many/most waxes, including Zymol, to really get the whole "layering thing" to work right you gotta mitigate the "solvent effect" by doing something like spit-shining, which can be a huge PIA.



Just FWIW, and it goes along with Dan`s "just pick one..." advice, unless you want the specific, "signature look" of Zaino, I wouldn`t use it. I.e., I wouldn`t top it with anything; if I didn`t want things to look/behave like Zaino I simply wouldn`t use it (whichis why I don`t).



Combining/layering/topping products can work great, don`t get me wrong. But IMO most people go about it in ways that...uhm...don`t accomplish much other than expending lots of time/money/effort.

[Dan]

Hi Dan,



Why not layer?,



Mainly because not a single person has been able to show that there is any sort of benefit. In fact there was a great study posted on another forum where the author used expensive equipment to prove that after the second coat, the film thickness actually decreased. I`ve personally conducted experiments as well, if the most durable product is the base, you might get as good durability as just using that product alone. If you put a more durable product on top of a less durable, you get the durability of the base. So in the end, it is a waste of time.



If you get some signature look that you like with two products, go for it, but that look might be in your head.

[togwt]

I’m in agreement as far as layering waxes insofar as to the use of low solvent / solvent neutralizing.



As far as Zaino is concerned it’s one of the few polymers that will ‘layer’ due to the solvents used ( and no I do not know what is used and understandably Sal will not divulge that info)

[Dan]

As far as Zaino is concerned it’s one of the few polymers that will ‘layer’ due to the solvents used ( and no I do not know what is used and understandably Sal will not divulge that info)



Does it really? In my toying around with it, two coats don`t seem to last any less than a dozen or so. Both seem to bite the dust at the 6 mo mark.

[togwt]

Layering is more about appearance (depth and etc, and is very subjective) than durability; twice as much won’t last twice as long.

[pwaug]

Mainly because not a single person has been able to show that there is any sort of benefit. In fact there was a great study posted on another forum where the author used expensive equipment to prove that after the second coat, the film thickness actually decreased. I`ve personally conducted experiments as well, if the most durable product is the base, you might get as good durability as just using that product alone. If you put a more durable product on top of a less durable, you get the durability of the base. So in the end, it is a waste of time.



If you get some signature look that you like with two products, go for it, but that look might be in your head.



So Dan, I`ve been putting down a base coat of DG105 (for the durability) then layering with POXY (for the look)--is it a waste of time to put down the DG105 from your experience??

[Accumulator]

Mainly because not a single person has been able to show that there is any sort of benefit. In fact there was a great study posted on another forum where the author used expensive equipment to prove that after the second coat, the film thickness actually decreased.



-AND-




Layering is more about appearance (depth and etc, and is very subjective) than durability; twice as much won’t last twice as long.



IME it just depends on the product and the application method.



I too saw that layering test with the Collinite (what`d he use again...:confused:.... I think 915) and thought that a) he should`ve waited longer between coats, and b) he shoulda spit-shined it if he was gonna recoat so quickly. *IIRC* and maybe I don`t, he just did immediate subsequent coats applied in the "normal" way.



When I experimented to see which of my LSPs were worth layering and which were not, and also what application methods were required to mitigate all the solvent-effect factors, I found that multiple coats of Collinite 476S and especially 845, *done properly*, lasted months longer than a single coat. Night-and-day, no way to misconstrue type difference with the layered side "still waxed" and the single-coat side "dead".



With Sӧuveran, OTOH, I had to do all sorts of spit-shine/hassle/PIA stuff to get any difference, so I decided it basically doesn`t layer and it`s best to just to a coat after every wash.



Waxes developed for mold-release applications (M16, FK1000P) simply *must* layer to work for their original purposes and thus will layer on cars. But not always without cosmetic issues (the pseudo-hologram effect one can get with the FK).



Easy enough to test for layering, just equalize the test period`s starting times between the single/multiple layer sections (something I haven`t seen people do in layering tests).






If you put a more durable product on top of a less durable, you get the durability of the base. So in the end, it is a waste of time..



Again, IME it just depends (probably on the specific products being use). On most of my vehicles I apply durable LSPs (FK1000P, Collinite) over not-durable bases (AIOs, 1Z WPS, 1Z Pro MP), base layers that won`t last a month by themselves. The vehicles don`t need re-LSPed any sooner than when I apply those LSPs over bare paint.



Best example of this is probably my `93 Audi, which has the same LSP regimen (Collinite) on the whole car, but a mix of bare-paint panels and othe panels with the 1Z WPS. Zero diffs in how long the LSP lasts even though the WPS is lucky to last more than a couple weeks by itself.

[David Fermani]

Mainly because not a single person has been able to show that there is any sort of benefit. In fact there was a great study posted on another forum where the author used expensive equipment to prove that after the second coat, the film thickness actually decreased. I`ve personally conducted experiments as well, if the most durable product is the base, you might get as good durability as just using that product alone. If you put a more durable product on top of a less durable, you get the durability of the base. So in the end, it is a waste of time.





I know I`ve come across that thread before. Was it on DW? If anyone has a link please post it.....



This is the only thing I could find: http://www.autopia.org/forum/hot-tub/108370-50-layers-zaino-picture.html :)

[mikemurphy234]

I believe this is what you were looking for.



Thickness of wax layers? - Detailing World (http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=127943) and



Wax and Sealant thicknesses - Detailing World (http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=130901)

[Dan]

Waxes developed for mold-release applications (M16, FK1000P) simply *must* layer to work for their original purposes and thus will layer on cars. But not always without cosmetic issues (the pseudo-hologram effect one can get with the FK).



I guess when I think of layer, I think it will keep going, like paint. But the fact is nothing short of Opticoat and maybe KSG seem to do that for me. Opticoat gets cloudy after quite a few layers.

[Accumulator]

I believe this is what you were looking for...



I think those`re two of them. Note I didn`t read all the way through both today.




I guess when I think of layer, I think it will keep going, like paint. But the fact is nothing short of Opticoat and maybe KSG seem to do that for me...



KSG definitely does layer all right!



Here`s how I test for layering. I`ve posted it before but anyhow..

-Start with a clean, prepped panel. IF it`s not "bare" be sure that whatever`s on it won`t skew the test (e.g., I wouldn`t have M07 on it, but I would use KAIO before KSG, etc. etc.)

-Divide panel in half and apply one application per day (you might wait longer in between, but I wouldn`t do it sooner) to the right half. Do six applications to that right side. If you use a paste wax, use a spit-shine technique to mitigate solvent-action

-Apply one final coat to the whole panel, both right and left sides (this will equalize the start times)

-Observe and draw conclusions



I`d sure like to hear about it if somebody did the above using the products that I believe to layer and didn`t get any diffs between the two sides.



Hey, I don`t enjoy doing this stuff, and I don`t care all that much about minute diffs in appearance; I LSP primarily for protection and durability (OK, garage-queens excepted). IF there were no functional benefits I wouldn`t layer. I *don`t* layer most paste waxes because I don`t want to bother with spit-shining. But when layering works, I can take a vehicle off the road for a week or so (to do the layering) and then just wash it for a long, long time. That`s the only reason I do it, and the only reason I care about the topic of layering.