New paint: What is the typical cure time frame before detailing?

[Drummer1]

Hello,



I just had my 4Runner repainted from the rear hatch to the grille. I want to protect it properly with my PC7424XP, polish, selant, and wax, but want to give it enough time to cure. Can anyone tell me what the time frame is before I give the newly painted areas a protective barier. I don`t want to screw up my paint job and the body shop manager told me that I didn`t need to wait and that it was safe to seal and wax it now.



Thanks,



Dennis

[Legacy]

Hello,



I just had my 4Runner repainted from the rear hatch to the grille. I want to protect it properly with my PC7424XP, polish, selant, and wax, but want to give it enough time to cure. Can anyone tell me what the time frame is before I give the newly painted areas a protective barier. I don`t want to screw up my paint job and the body shop manager told me that I didn`t need to wait and that it was safe to seal and wax it now.



Thanks,



Dennis

He`s the manager, do you think he would give you bad advice? I had my front fender and door re-painted and was told that it was heat baked and I could wax right away and I did. It`s been 3 years with no problems.

[Dan]

I`d still wait 30 days, it won`t hurt anything, people go decades without waxing and the paint is fine.

[Accumulator]

He`s the manager, do you think he would give you bad advice?



Sure! I`ve had painters and body shop managers tell me stuff that directly contradicted the info from the paint manufacturers. Last time I looked into it, Glasurit and Spies-Hecker (does BASF own both of those? I forget...) were both saying 90 days.




Can anyone tell me what the time frame is...?



I wait 90 days. I`ve had paint noticeably harden up even after 1-2 months so I err on the side of caution. Hot/cold weather can factor in too.



Note that while I myself use fresh-paint-safe glazes (either Meguiar`s M05 New Car Glaze or 3M`s Imperial Hand Glaze) during those three months, there *are* LSPs that are fresh-paint-safe. After two months I used Optimum Car Wax on a reshot bumpercover and it still cured "nice and hard" (which is the thing I worry about when it comes to this topic). I only tried that (and I might even try it sooner next time I have paintwork done) because the OCW is approved by Ford for use on "post-production paintwork".

[Legacy]

[quote name=`Accumulator`]Sure! I`ve had painters and body shop managers tell me stuff that directly contradicted the info from the paint manufacturers. Last time I looked into it, Glasurit and Spies-Hecker (does BASF own both of those? I forget...) were both saying 90 days.

I wait 90 days. I`ve had paint noticeably harden up even after 1-2 months so I err on the side of caution. Hot/cold weather can factor in too.





So how many paint failures have you seen when waxing right away? What happens to the paint?

[Accumulator]

So how many paint failures have you seen when waxing right away? What happens to the paint?



I`ve never see/experienced any issues as I only work on/know from my own vehicles and I`ve always waited.



People talk about catastrophic failure-type issues, or "clouding" from LSPing too soon (with the wrong LSP), but I`ve never seen it :nixweiss



The potential problem that I`ve been warned about (and somebody here, forget who it was, said he experienced it on a repainted hood) is that if you interfere with the outgassing/curing, by LSPing with the wrong stuff, then the paint will never attain its maximum potential hardness; it`ll stay "new repaint-soft" forever. I`m a bit of a fanatic about wanting my paint *hard*, and given how my experiences have been I`m gonna wait.



Sometimes the diffs between 30 and 90 days have been downright dramatic, as in...from very soft to very hard. Sometimes I couldn`t even polish with M80 without instilling lots of marring :eek: but after two more months it was so hard the M80 wouldn`t do much of anything. Had that happen a few times so now I hardly ever even bother polishing for the first few months.

[Ron Ketcham]

Should a shop be using the newer water borne paints, there is very little hydrocarbon solvent to off gass.

The downdraft booths, with their massive air movement and heat at usually 165 to 180F finalizes any of the small percentage of hydrocarbon solvents evaporation, the water portion is quickly taken care of by the air movement.

Not that way 5 or 6 years ago.

If the shop says it`s ok, then they are using the latest in paint technology and have a quality paint booth.

Grumpy

[Accumulator]

If the shop says it`s ok, then they are [PROBABLY] using the latest in paint technology and [PROBABLY] have a quality paint booth.

Grumpy



There, fixed it for ya ;)

[Drummer1]

He`s the manager, do you think he would give you bad advice? I had my front fender and door re-painted and was told that it was heat baked and I could wax right away and I did. It`s been 3 years with no problems.



I trust him and think his advice is good since he has been in the paint and body business for 13 years. I have read so many opinions on Autopia and AutoGeek from experienced detailers about waiting 30-90 days and want to do the right thing.

Thanks

[Drummer1]

I don`t know if it would help, but the paint system he uses is De Beer which is a Valspar brand. Are any of you familiar with the product? Just thought the additional information might help. Thanks for all feedback and direction on my posted concerns.

[Legacy]

I`ve never see/experienced any issues as I only work on/know from my own vehicles and I`ve always waited.



People talk about catastrophic failure-type issues, or "clouding" from LSPing too soon (with the wrong LSP), but I`ve never seen it :nixweiss



The potential problem that I`ve been warned about (and somebody here, forget who it was, said he experienced it on a repainted hood) is that if you interfere with the outgassing/curing, by LSPing with the wrong stuff, then the paint will never attain its maximum potential hardness; it`ll stay "new repaint-soft" forever. I`m a bit of a fanatic about wanting my paint *hard*, and given how my experiences have been I`m gonna wait.



Sometimes the diffs between 30 and 90 days have been downright dramatic, as in...from very soft to very hard. Sometimes I couldn`t even polish with M80 without instilling lots of marring :eek: but after two more months it was so hard the M80 wouldn`t do much of anything. Had that happen a few times so now I hardly ever even bother polishing for the first few months.

Are the paints used by today`s high quality body shops much different than oem paints? I don`t see a warning label on a new car to not wax for 90 days after the application of the oem paint.

[Ron Ketcham]

Good question, perhaps a little history, some very basic tech info should be shared regarding this.

1. In the late 60`s, the OEM paint chemistry was moving forward in order to reduce production time of vehicles. Manufacturers required paint systems that could "dry` quicker than the past paints, plus their application methods were changing as well. However, they were applying the same basic paint systems as the local bodyshop was using.

2. By the late 70`s, great strides had been made by the paint suppliers to meet the needs of the vehicle companies and part of that was moving to "bake ovens", which accelerated the release of a good part of the carrier solvents used to get the pigments/resins to the surface of the vehicles.

This speeded up the "curing/drying" of the paint system, but they still contains some hydrocarbon solvents in the paint system when it left the bake oven. At that time, the paints would still require 30 to 90 days to finish off gassing of the solvents.

That was OEM paints.

3.At this time, most bodyshops did not have even a true "paint booth", but rather rooms that they attempted to have good lighting, venilation and clean to apply their "paint materials". The chemistry of the paints used by bodyshops was a bit different than what the OEM used, but still contained a high percentage of hydrocarbon solvents, which when they "off gassed", or dried/cured, released VOC`s into the atomosphere.

4. By the late 80`s, new govement regulations for VOC`s were in place, older sipon feed paint guns, using high air pressure in the paint pot were slowly being replaced for use by bodyshops, with the HVLP guns.

In the assembly plants, the use of robots was coming into use, and entirely different paint chemisty, with lower VOC content. At this time it became very necessary to have complex bake ovens, etc, for without their use, the "paint" would never "cure/dry", it would stay soft for months on end. This is even more true today for OEM paint systems, which now consist of the E-Coat, suface primers and color/base coat, all being "water borne", meaning that "water" is the basic "carrier solvent" for the pigments, resin system, (resin system is the film former and binder) of the base coats, but most important, the "clearcoat" and is what holds the important UV blockers in the substrate of the clearcoat. OEN clearcoats still use a small percentage of hydrocarbon solvents in their application, which consist of three types, a "carrier", a "flow" and a all important "tailing" solvent system.

The water carrier is quickly evaporated in the bake ovens, for each coat of the paint system. The "paint system" will not cure with out high bake temps, some OEM paint systems today require up to 300F to complete the curing/drying/crosslinking.

Once vehicles painted with these systems today leave the final clear bake oven, they are almost 100% totally cured/crosslinked, and in a day or so of normal exposure to air are 100%.

That DOES NOT mean they may not exhibit some softness, as paint coating will continue to "compact" with age. (IE become more dense).

5. Refinish materials-"what a bodyshop applies" is different chemistry in it`s solvent system and it`s film former/ binder resin system.

Today there are regulations as to the amount of VOC content which may be in paint and the solvents required to apply them and released into the enviorment.

Each state has their own regulations regarding the VOC allowed, but their air is monitored by the EPA and if excessive release, when factored into other types of VOC releases exceeds the EPA`s guideline, they will step in an make them start enforcing of stricter regulations.

Example, in some states, bodyshops can not source old lacquers, some akaloid enamels, solvents and are regulated to the point that they must only use HVLP paint guns, have an enclosed ventilation/flitered system on the air being released from their paint booths, etc.

6. Up to date bodyshops, especially in highly regulated states, have modern "down draft" paint booths, with the latest in filtering.

These booths do have the ability to introduce "heat" into the booth, but not to actually "bake" the paint, despite what some may tell you.

The reason for a "down draft" booth is to create the correct amount of air movement around the painted vehicle or parts, as that increases the evaporation release of the solvents, but most important, the larger percentage off water used today in the solvent carrier system.

Until the paint applied is subjected to enough "air", for a specified time, the paint WILL NOT cure or crosslink (dry) to specifications that is needed.

The added heat, is also regulated, but on average is never over 180-185F.(see Item 4 and OEM bake temps), as it aids in accelerating the evaporation of the carrier solvents,( water and some hydrocarbon mixtures).

As this takes place, the "filmformers" start to tighten up, to crosslink and create that dense top surface one see`s with a clearcoat, IE-Gloss.

Which is why a bodyshop that is trained and certified by their paint supplier can now provide a warranty on the paint they apply (PPG-DuPont, some others)

These shops painted vehicles may have waxes and sealants applied to the vehicle within a day or so of coming out of the paint booth.

To cut to the chase, OEM paints, due to their different chemistry require high heat to cure, while "refinish paint" requires air as it catalist or curing agent.

There is more, but this should be enough of a primer on the subject to allow anyone who wishes to become more educated on the subject to do their basic research.

Hope this helps and my fingers are tired from typing.

Grumpy

[Ron Ketcham]

Thanks everyone for the PM`s regarding this post.

That said, it is a very basic overview of the progression of automotive paint, VOC`s, changes in the last 50 years.

I do not find it possible to be less "techy" and still get across the basics.

At the same time, since retiring, the majority of my reference materials were left with the company, so I am working mainly from memory and a few resources that I do still have.

Grumpy

[Accumulator]

Good question, perhaps a little history, some very basic tech info should be shared regarding this.....



... this should be enough of a primer on the subject to allow anyone who wishes to become more educated on the subject to do their basic research.

Hope this helps and my fingers are tired from typing.

Grumpy



That was really good, glad you wore your fingers to the bone to put it up.



My one shop has had a rough time getting all squared away with the waterbased stuff. They did get the last job for me right the first time, but it`s been a long haul.



And OK...hearing it from *YOU* I`ll go ahead and LSP fresh (waterbased) paintwork.

[Ron Ketcham]

When "water borne" and HVLP guns first came out and too a good bit even today, they struggle with old habits and a poor air supply to the guns.

Water/moisture filters used in the 70`s and 80`s just don`t cut it, so now a shop has to invest in a high dollar "dryer" system to remove any moisture from their air supply.

Miss one needed maintance of the system and the next paint job will probably not be so good!

The other thing is that all painters are prima donna`s and "I been doing this for 15 years, I will mix and such, my way, I am smarter than PPG/DuPont,etc."

Grumpy