Finish hardness with different vehicles

[imported_RedlineIRL]

Lately I have been thinking about getting something different for weekend, nice weather to drive around. All I have ever owned before is GMs, and GMs other than mine are the only vehicles I have ever detailed. So I guess you can say I am pretty familiar with them. I have been thinking about a new Boss 302, E90 era M3s, or a CTS V coupe.



I know that finish hardness, or softness, differs from manufacturers. From my experience GMs tend to be pretty hard, which I like since they don`t mar easily, assumuing you are washing properly. But what about the Boss 302s and M3s, what are they like? Are they pretty tough, or do they swirl up just by looking at it wrong? I am avoiding darker colors if that makes any kind of difference

[Scottwax]

If you avoid darker colors you should be just fine. Both Ford and BMW have reasonably hard paints until you get into jet black.

[imported_DetailDan]

A friend of mine recently completed an internship with BMW in Germany. While he was there I asked him to see if he could get any info on the paint and clear coat. From what he was told, BMW uses the same clear on all of their cars. Yet we have all this mumbo jumbo about specific colors having certain clear coat hardness.

[Ron Ketcham]

Lately I have been thinking about getting something different for weekend, nice weather to drive around. All I have ever owned before is GMs, and GMs other than mine are the only vehicles I have ever detailed. So I guess you can say I am pretty familiar with them. I have been thinking about a new Boss 302, E90 era M3s, or a CTS V coupe.



I know that finish hardness, or softness, differs from manufacturers. From my experience GMs tend to be pretty hard, which I like since they don`t mar easily, assumuing you are washing properly. But what about the Boss 302s and M3s, what are they like? Are they pretty tough, or do they swirl up just by looking at it wrong? I am avoiding darker colors if that makes any kind of difference

The "hardness" issue is a crap shoot.

What plant, what temp of bake, what amount of time, etc.

Then, and with GM, they tend to change the "tailing" solvent(part of three solvents used in their OEM paint process) can make a big difference in the "hardness" of the clearcoat.

A few years back , Cadillac`s dark base coats had a very soft clear, due to the changes of the tailing solvent(PPG was or is main supplier) GM requested to reduce visable orange peel. It eventually hardened up in a few months..

By changing the tailing solvent, they can get a better flow out of the clear during the bake process, less orange peel, but fairly soft for about 6 months, then it settles down to normal hardness.

That`s GM, and when you get to other manufacturers, they each have their ways of achieving what they want for a finish.

As a rule, volume, lower cost vehicles will have a harder clear, due to their need to produce each day, more production.

They need to reduce the time spent in the paint area, bake ovens, etc, so use a fast cure tailing solvent system, a bit more orange peel, but acceptable for the prices of the vehicles and potential buyers.

Then, well we could move on to the higher end European models, different clear materials, etc.

Just like in the States, these will vary as well.

Grumpy

[togwt]

A friend of mine recently completed an internship with BMW in Germany. While he was there I asked him to see if he could get any info on the paint and clear coat. From what he was told, BMW uses the same clear on all of their cars. Yet we have all this mumbo jumbo about different colors having different clear coat hardness.



I have had similar conversations with BMW Engineers and they usually state that [all BMW clear coat paint is made to the same specification] but the variables are-



• Each vehicle assembly plant uses different clear coat paint from one of three major paint suppliers; PPG, DuPont, and BASF products and each of these companies have a range of several differing paints

• Most vehicle manufacturers will issue a painting specification that denotes amongst other things; a paint to hardener ratio, dependent upon quality control this spec may or may not be strictly adhered to

• Some vehicle manufacturers have more than one plant assembling the same model of a vehicle; each plant will often use a different supplier for the clear coat paints.

• Each assembly plant may elect to use one of several OEM paints from PPG, DuPont or BASF clear coat product lines.



This is also true of imports assembled in the US; usually one paint supplier is approved for all plants; however each plant may modify the application/bake process in order to meet production demand. This may also affect which has the harder or softer clear.

[imported_DetailDan]

I have had similar conversations with BMW Engineers and they usually state that [all BMW clear coat paint is made to the same specification] but the variables are-



• Each vehicle assembly plant uses different clear coat paint from one of three major paint suppliers; PPG, DuPont, and BASF products and each of these companies have a range of several differing paints

• Most vehicle manufacturers will issue a painting specification that denotes amongst other things; a paint to hardener ratio, dependent upon quality control this spec may or may not be strictly adhered to

• Some vehicle manufacturers have more than one plant assembling the same model of a vehicle; each plant will often use a different supplier for the clear coat paints.

• Each assembly plant may elect to use one of several OEM paints from PPG, DuPont or BASF clear coat product lines.



This is also true of imports assembled in the US; usually one paint supplier is approved for all plants; however each plant may modify the application/bake process in order to meet production demand. This may also affect which has the harder or softer clear.



Right. My point is that not ALL GM`s are have hard paint, not ALL jet black BMW`s are ultra soft, not ALL Corvettes have hard paint, etc. I think people should stop talking in absolutes when it comes to paint. Go by what that individual car is telling you, not what you read on the internet.

[Accumulator]

Well, I do think you can generalize to *some* extent. At least to the point of having an idea what to expect when considering a given purchase. E.g., some cars are known for *generally* having soft/hard clear and at least that`s some guideline for what a buyer can *usually* expect.



There are vehicles I`ve simply written off because they`re known for usually having stupid-soft clear. Not like I could test-detail a potential purchase to see if it`s some unusually hard example that I could live with, so I just avoid "soft clear cars".



If somebody wants hard clear, would you recommend an Audi or a Honda? Right, despite that batch of soft blue S4s, and didn`t Honda make some vehicles with single stage white? See, there are two examples of how the "rules don`t hold", but still.. isn`t it fair to say that "Audis are generally harder than Hondas"?

[RaskyR1]

I have had similar conversations with BMW Engineers and they usually state that [all BMW clear coat paint is made to the same specification] but the variables are-



• Each vehicle assembly plant uses different clear coat paint from one of three major paint suppliers; PPG, DuPont, and BASF products and each of these companies have a range of several differing paints

• Most vehicle manufacturers will issue a painting specification that denotes amongst other things; a paint to hardener ratio, dependent upon quality control this spec may or may not be strictly adhered to

• Some vehicle manufacturers have more than one plant assembling the same model of a vehicle; each plant will often use a different supplier for the clear coat paints.

• Each assembly plant may elect to use one of several OEM paints from PPG, DuPont or BASF clear coat product lines.



This is also true of imports assembled in the US; usually one paint supplier is approved for all plants; however each plant may modify the application/bake process in order to meet production demand. This may also affect which has the harder or softer clear.



This could explain why we have a generalization about certain cars/colors, but there are always those random cars that just don`t fit the bill. ;)



Here is good read Stoops shared with me when I was visiting Megs Headquarters last July.

Dealing with crazy hard paint or, Don`t believe everything you read on the Interwebs! (http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/showthread.php?54103-Dealing-with-crazy-hard-paint-or-Don-t-believe-everything-you-read-on-the-Interwebs!&highlight=audi)

[imported_RedlineIRL]

Right. My point is that not ALL GM`s are have hard paint, not ALL jet black BMW`s are ultra soft, not ALL Corvettes have hard paint, etc. I think people should stop talking in absolutes when it comes to paint. Go by what that individual car is telling you, not what you read on the internet.

When I said that GMs had a hard finish, that was just from my experience. Not what I read on some forum. Just the luck of what I have worked with.



I know that not all vehicles are going to be exactly the same, but usually most manufacturers stick to a certain process or finish type that is used along the board. So, since I have zero experiences with Fords or BMWs, I am just looking at what the average models are like. Since I want to avoid those that are very soft

[Scottwax]

Right. My point is that not ALL GM`s are have hard paint, not ALL jet black BMW`s are ultra soft, not ALL Corvettes have hard paint, etc. I think people should stop talking in absolutes when it comes to paint. Go by what that individual car is telling you, not what you read on the internet.



I detailed a black Chevy Colorado today that makes jet black BMW paint seem like CeramiClear. That was a less than fun surprise.

[C. Charles Hahn]

I detailed a black Chevy Colorado today that makes jet black BMW paint seem like CeramiClear. That was a less than fun surprise.



Interesting.... newer or older? Do you know what plant it was from?

[Accumulator]

I detailed a black Chevy Colorado today that makes jet black BMW paint seem like CeramiClear. That was a less than fun surprise.



That`s good to know if somebody`s in the market for one. Even though it might be a one-off anomoly, if I were thinking of buying one I`d take that info and generalize at least to the point of being wary.

[Ron Ketcham]

If you want a new one, better step up quick.

They are being discontinued by GM, a new generation will be coming.

The last of them from the Shreveport plant came off the line this month.

I think a few are still coming out of another plant (Wenzville?), but when the parts bins are empty, that`s it for this model.

Grumpy