Little etched marks from some sort of droppings

[imported_cp1]

Hi Guys,



Haven`t been around here in a while. I`m a detailing fanatic, taking great care of my own cars and doing a select few on the side.



I just picked up a new 2012 BMW X5 Alpine white 8 days ago, watched it come off the truck, took immediate delivery, paint is perfect....except for BMW`s ever famous orange peel.



On to my issue. This is my daily garaged driver. For this vehicle I clayed, then used Maguiers UP followed by UW. In the past 5 days I`ve put 3 coats of UW on the whole vehicle. Everyday I notice these little tiny droppings (not bird crap) and when I dampen them and remove them a small etch mark is left in the finish that requires UC..UP..UW all over again.



Pretty frustrating.

Any ideas what it is or do I need more durability than UW

Thanks

[Ron Ketcham]

Try getting the "acid deposits" out of the paint film first.

Clay is not going to do that.

Unfortunately, it is not always possible to get all the acids out, but in most cases you can.

The "problem" is that the "resin system" of the clear has been compromised to the point that it is very sensitive to "any" exposure of moisture and the moisture (water) may reactivate the residue of any acids left in the pores, or the resin system is so compromised that the concern will continue, for almost, ever.

Common concern with many car builds, but BMW and Audi, due to their selection of paint suppliers, seem to be more common.

Grumpy

[togwt]

These articles may provide some pertinent information



http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/140987-bird-excrement-removal.html



http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/141242-valugard-paint-decontamination-system.html

[Paca12]

Try getting the "acid deposits" out of the paint film first.

Clay is not going to do that.

Unfortunately, it is not always possible to get all the acids out, but in most cases you can.

The "problem" is that the "resin system" of the clear has been compromised to the point that it is very sensitive to "any" exposure of moisture and the moisture (water) may reactivate the residue of any acids left in the pores, or the resin system is so compromised that the concern will continue, for almost, ever.

Common concern with many car builds, but BMW and Audi, due to their selection of paint suppliers, seem to be more common.

Grumpy



Sorry to jump in, but I am having a similar issue (I already started a new thread) and just wanted to make sure I understand this. Are you saying that even a new car, or a relatively new car that has been taken care of may still have their resin system "compromised" to such an extent that the problem will have no solution?

Thank you in advance. And best of luck to you cp1! Hope you can find a way to fix your problem.

[Ron Ketcham]

Yuuuppp!

Grumpy

[togwt]

Clear coat paint, especially water-based paint, which are essentially low solids paints (up to 60% waterborne solvent), but they are legal because de-ionized water is used as the solvent, as opposed to volatile organic compounds (VOC), they are a lot more porous than we like to think.

[Paca12]

Thank you Ron and TOGWT!

And again, sorry cp1 for stepping in.

[Accumulator]

This is one more argument for simply using a decontamination system [INSERT plug for AutoInt/ValuGard`s "ABC" HERE] on *every* newly acquired vehicle. You just don`t know what it might`ve been through, even if you peeled off the transit wrap yourself.



And I`d get some good LSP on there that can resist etching. For a while SUV I`d be all about FK1000P, but then I`m pretty much all about that stuff on *every* vehicle these days. I`ve simply never had any etching from bugs/bird bombs/whatever on a vehicle wearing a few coats of FK1000P, even when I let the nasty stuff sit on the paint for ages before I clean it off.

[imported_carnut]

Have some acid rain on the car ( `07 BMW 5 series) and since Value Guard in only 130 miles from me ( Louisville> Cincinnati) , I decided to go ahead and take the car there and let them fix the issue. I am just too scared to let any detailer do the job.



One detailer I talked to, said yes he would probably wet sand the car and do it that way (ouch)



Any recommendations ?

[imported_carnut]

These articles may provide some pertinent information



http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/140987-bird-excrement-removal.html



http://www.autopia.org/forum/autopia-detailing-wiki/141242-valugard-paint-decontamination-system.html





Have some acid rain on the car ( `07 BMW 5 series) and since Value Guard is only 130 miles from me ( Louisville> Cincinnati) , I decided to go ahead and take the car there instead and let them fix the issue. I am just too scared to let any detailer do the job.



One detailer I talked to, said yes he would probably wet sand the car and do it that way



Any one familiar with Value Guard people in Cincinnati, OH?



Any recommendations ?

[togwt]

This is one more argument for simply using a decontamination system on *every* newly acquired vehicle. You just don`t know what it might`ve been through, even if you peeled off the transit wrap yourself.



And I`d get some good LSP on there that can resist etching. For a while SUV I`d be all about FK1000P, but then I`m pretty much all about that stuff on *every* vehicle these days. I`ve simply never had any etching from bugs/bird bombs/whatever on a vehicle wearing a few coats of FK1000P, even when I let the nasty stuff sit on the paint for ages before I clean it off.



Vehicle manufacturer studies have shown that failure to remove environmental contaminants (like imbedded rail dust, acid rain, industrial fallout and other environmental contaminants) from paint film can cause premature degradation of the paint system. While clay products are useful for overspray, they cannot deep clean the surface and pores of the paint. This can only be accomplished through a thorough chemical cleaning and acid neutralization.



1. Decontamination



ValuGard Paint Decontamination System - this system is the most recognized by original equipment manufacturers (OEM0 as well as their paint suppliers, BASF, DuPont, and PPG approved chemical neutralization system in the industry. In fact, major auto manufactures have issued technical service bulletins/advisories directing their dealers and port operations to use the ValuGard System for required repairs and pre-treatment for acid rain and industrial fallout repairs.



This system removes, industrial fallout, rail dust, acid rain, oxidation, silicone and waxes, tar and road grime, tree sap, love bugs and other insects, bird droppings, and hard water spots. No other paint cleaning method removes paint contaminants this efficiently. A three step system with a sequence of neutralization and neutralizing wash system formulated to remove industrial fallout, rail dust, hard water deposits, acid rain residue and other forms of pollutants.



2. Protection



Optimum Opti-Coatâ„¢ - is based on a resin pre-polymer that uses a configuration of (Si 14) (SiO2 -silica) bond, which are far more resistant to enzymes than the C-C configuration used in polymer sealants. As a consequent it is more [I]resistant to acids. It forms ceramic bonds at very high temperatures and will not be damaged by extreme heat and therefore resists oxidation.



Opti-Coat has better resistance to chemicals (acid), scratches and soil release properties than other automotive coating currently in use. This coating has a 2-4 µ (microns) applied thickness and a hardness of 9H (Pencil Hardness) when fully cross-linked and provides a semi-permanent coating like a regular clear coat lasts indefinitely unless it is removed by polishing, sanding, or paint removers.

[Accumulator]

TOGWT- Yeah, with all the advantages of the decontamination systems, and the overall ease of use (gee, you just wash the car with three different products) I`m always surprised that people ignore that approach in favor of clay :nixweiss



I *can* see why people (myself included to a large degree) aren`t readily embracing the coatings, but there`s sure nothing *wrong* with that approach.




Have some acid rain on the car ( `07 BMW 5 series) and since Value Guard is only 130 miles from me ( Louisville> Cincinnati) , I decided to go ahead and take the car there instead and let them fix the issue. I am just too scared to let any detailer do the job.



One detailer I talked to, said yes he would probably wet sand the car and do it that way



Any one familiar with Value Guard people in Cincinnati, OH?



Any recommendations ?



If he doesn`t chime in on this thread, PM member Ron Ketcham, who worked for them and is well-connected there.

[togwt]

[I *can* see why people (myself included to a large degree) aren`t readily embracing the coatings, but there`s sure nothing *wrong* with that approach]



I must be missing something as I can`t see a downside to these coatings (easy application (<30 mins)scratch and acid resistant) with a 2-4 µ (microns) applied thickness, they are like a second clear coat

[Accumulator]

I must be missing something as I can`t see a downside to these coatings (easy application (<30 mins)scratch and acid resistant) with a 2-4 µ (microns) applied thickness, they are like a second clear coat



Eh, for the most part the only thing you`re missing is, to a large extent, uhm....just me being me :o



For the sake of discussion, and maybe somebody else will see themselves in my shoes here, my rationale is as follows:



-I question whether I`d find the application all *that* easy on a large, light-colored vehicle (this is based on my experiences coating wheels)

-I`m especially concerned about the issue of doing spot-repairs once the "layering period" is over

-I don`t want to have to polish everywhere when it does need redone

-I question whether I`d get the exact "look" I`m after on certain vehicles

-Inability to use "filler" products under it (again, only germane to certain vehicles)

-I question whether I`d realize an appreciable functional upgrade over, say...FK1000P, which is working out to be, for practical purposes, an easily-redone "semi-permanent coating" just as heavily layered KSG did



I`m at the not-broken/don`t-fix point at present, which *does* include using the coating on the wheels of certain vehicles. Not that I think I`m being all closed-minded or anything....a few tweaks/advances to the coatings and I may well get onboard for overall-vehicle use.

[Kean]

For the sake of discussion, and maybe somebody else will see themselves in my shoes here…



I know this has been brought up before and I have shared some of the same concerns as you. ….mainly these points you made:






-I question whether I`d find the application all *that* easy on a large, light-colored vehicle (this is based on my experiences coating wheels)

-I`m especially concerned about the issue of doing spot-repairs once the "layering period" is over





I’ll add:



- I’m not crazy about the fact that I would need to completely remove OC from the surface(s) of the vehicle if I ever decide to go with another product (considering things apparently won’t stick to OC). ….whether I don’t like the look, I want to try a new product, etc.



A few months ago I noticed the initial stance/instruction on re-coating “cured� panels with OC had changed from having to “completely remove product first� to “scuff and re-apply�. This helped get me past part of my concern about spot repairs and eventually why I decided to apply it to my wife’s ’08 Forester.



I consider myself relatively inexperienced by comparison to other Autopians but perhaps more informed than the average Joe-consumer. Taking that into consideration, I will say that I agree OC is not what I would consider necessarily “easy� especially for someone who has no experience with WOWA products. It also takes a lot of time/patience (at least the first time for me), the right lighting and an eye for detail (to spot variations in the finish and ensure any high spots are addressed before the product hardens). ….did I mention patience isn’t a big strong point for me. ;) There is also the additional time spent going over the car prior to application to make sure I could live with the finish as is (after correction). My wife’s Forester is also a light gold color which made it a little more difficult for me during my assessment steps.



In either case, I’m relatively happy with the result on her car. In particular, I am very happy with OC’s performance on some trim and other bits I have used it on (even prior to using it on her whole car). As soon as I get time to do a full correction on my used (new to me) DD/beater, I will be applying OC to it as well. ….although I don’t know if I will ever get the nerve up to use it on my black Challenger. In that scenario, I might also share some of the same aesthetic concerns.