HELP! Sooooft and sticky!!!

[imported_Bence]

Guys, in my not so short detailing career I`ve reached a point where I don`t know what to dig out.



A friend brought his Impreza STi to me to remove some etching from the surface. The car is generaly in good shape and he is reasonably anal about car care - with the minor exception that he doesn`t know anything about proper car care.



The Subie is overall nice, but it`s the softest paint I`ve ever encountered. I arrived in a world where BMW Jet Blacks and Honda NHBs are diamonds compared to this Impy.



You know you`re scratching your head when the surface is full of holograms after proper polishing passes with the softest 100ppi foams and Menz PO85RE5, 3M UF, OPS, 1Z WaxFinish OS using the rotary @600RPMs (to max 900 experimentally) and the short throw DA...



It`s somehow funny when a finessing pad starts to sing and stick @600RPMs and generates heat, so that the surface is definitely more than lukewarm...



Ideas?

[Barry Theal]

Hand rub the polish on and buff it off with a machine if that makes sense...

[imported_Bence]

Interesting idea... Will try that, alongside a functionally nonabrasive AIO...



With a pinch of dishonesty, I can make it looking perfect, thanks to the generous concealing ability of Bilt Hamber Auto Balm, but the owner will experience the real world after the first wash.



Obviously, it is the perfect candidate for a coating, as they can fill this type of imperfections, and as they harden/cure, they become far more scratch resistant than the factory paint, where the catalytic reaction was so poor in this case...

[imported_truzoom]

Is it factory paint? Base Coat/Clearcoat or single stage?

[Ron Ketcham]

This could be a good tech subject for chat on Thursday evening.

I have some questions that are related to seeing the products, etc, that are supposidly utilized or not.

Lot`s of things that may affect or bring about the issue.

See you at the chat on Thursday evening.

Grumpy

[togwt]

Try using a firm pad that has little surface resistance, a LC Purple Foamed Wool and Menzerna PO 203S or PO 106 FF polish with very light surface pressure. You could also add more surface lubrication (Gloss- it Pad Prime) alternatively apply polish with a PC orbital polisher #4-5.

[cobraa]

Hey man!!! I was wondering the same damn thing with the STI 2011 I did last week. I thought it was my Iron-x that wasnt washed properly. Now Im thinking its the paint itselft!

[JohnKleven]

I find the Meguiars Microfiber system works well on this paint via da polisher. You can also put a drop of mineral oil on your buff pad, this will keep it spinning smooth. Black Subaru paint is the absolute worst, I always end up switching to a da for these and it takes all day.

[togwt]

I thought it was my Iron-x that wasnt washed properly. Now Im thinking its the paint itselft!



Some paints (isocyanate free paint formula, a clear coat with low heat and abrasion resistance, paint that has not sufficiently outgased or has insufficient hardeners, hence ‘soft’) this type of paint heats up very quickly causing the polish surface lubrication to dry out, which causes an increase in surface resistance, the pad feels like its dragging and can skip, as the polish abrasives stick to the paint

[imported_Bence]

My Optimum MF pads are not here yet, so I have to stick to what I have.



But (knocking on wood) I might found the combo I was looking for. Yesterday, the only thing I haven`t tried was the UF on a DA. I slapped a 5 inch 90ppi Scholl waffle pad on my hi-speed/short throw Bosch DA, and with very little compression and up to speed 4 max it works. I tried to speed up a bit to 5, but I wasn`t comfortable with that speed.



Now back to work!

[cobraa]

Some paints (isocyanate free paint formula, a clear coat with low heat and abrasion resistance, paint that has not sufficiently outgased or has insufficient hardeners, hence ‘soft’) this type of paint heats up very quickly causing the polish surface lubrication to dry out, which causes an increase in surface resistance, the pad feels like its dragging and can skip, as the polish abrasives stick to the paint



thanks for the clarification. I love reading your stuff btw!

[imported_Bence]

Well, the outcome of this adventure was everything but acceptable.



The final combo (UF/DA@speed4/90ppi black Scholl waffle pad) was very nice and predictable. M80 did a tremendous job on the below surface etchings and made a total correction. HOWEVER... After a light IPA wipedown basically everything was fine, but the next day, I experienced a surprising dropback (mind you, full strength IPA...). Double checked a couple spots again with IPA and Acrysol - holos! That`s why my original plan of using OOS was nixed, and instead I had to rely on the heavenly filling effect of Auto Balm. And that was an even more interesting story.



The undisturbed panels (rear doors and wings) were absolutely fine and the final outcome was sensational, with wicked DOI. The lower parts of the front wings and doors, where this car absolutely destroys itself, were more tricky and the Balm was getting more and more stubborn. Then the horizontals came... While the bootlid was fine, the roof was bad, and the heat-tortured bonnet was a nightmare. I couldn`t even apply the Balm by hand! The paint was so permeable, that it slurped in the Balm at certain parts and behaved normally on other areas. The finish was cloudy, uneven - like puke basically. I had to even it out, "filling up" the thirsty parts - but for this purpose only the DA could produce the necessary film. And this is the best part - the finish got holos even with the Balm, just because the MF towels were too coarse. I removed the Balm after half a standard panel, and one-third of the bonnet, so basically immediately, but on the critical areas it welded itself to the finish - and the DA can pull a seriously thin and ````geneous film - so I had to change my fluffy towels (too heavy pressure) to flatter ones with a short nap and they were able to break up the LSP residue more efficiently. But stiffer towels mean more physical damage, abrasion... need I say more? The second coat went on easier and masked more, so the car looks very nice.



Fortunately, the owner understood the issues, especially, when I demoed the "scratch it with a MF" part, so he accepted it as is (his eyes are not trained to spot holos). He was enthusiastic about the final outcome and ultimately, only this counts. Do I wanna see this car in the future? After spending four entertaining days with it, oh no, never again...



(I copied the post from the DW forum, so the words were chosen accordingly...)

[Kotsios]

Well, the outcome of this adventure was everything but acceptable.



The final combo (UF/DA@speed4/90ppi black Scholl waffle pad) was very nice and predictable. M80 did a tremendous job on the below surface etchings and made a total correction. HOWEVER... After a light IPA wipedown basically everything was fine, but the next day, I experienced a surprising dropback (mind you, full strength IPA...). Double checked a couple spots again with IPA and Acrysol - holos! That`s why my original plan of using OOS was nixed, and instead I had to rely on the heavenly filling effect of Auto Balm. And that was an even more interesting story.



The undisturbed panels (rear doors and wings) were absolutely fine and the final outcome was sensational, with wicked DOI. The lower parts of the front wings and doors, where this car absolutely destroys itself, were more tricky and the Balm was getting more and more stubborn. Then the horizontals came... While the bootlid was fine, the roof was bad, and the heat-tortured bonnet was a nightmare. I couldn`t even apply the Balm by hand! The paint was so permeable, that it slurped in the Balm at certain parts and behaved normally on other areas. The finish was cloudy, uneven - like puke basically. I had to even it out, "filling up" the thirsty parts - but for this purpose only the DA could produce the necessary film. And this is the best part - the finish got holos even with the Balm, just because the MF towels were too coarse. I removed the Balm after half a standard panel, and one-third of the bonnet, so basically immediately, but on the critical areas it welded itself to the finish - and the DA can pull a seriously thin and ````geneous film - so I had to change my fluffy towels (too heavy pressure) to flatter ones with a short nap and they were able to break up the LSP residue more efficiently. But stiffer towels mean more physical damage, abrasion... need I say more? The second coat went on easier and masked more, so the car looks very nice.



Fortunately, the owner understood the issues, especially, when I demoed the "scratch it with a MF" part, so he accepted it as is (his eyes are not trained to spot holos). He was enthusiastic about the final outcome and ultimately, only this counts. Do I wanna see this car in the future? After spending four entertaining days with it, oh no, never again...



What is UF?

[imported_Bence]

3M Ultrafina/Ultra Fine, one of the best finishing/finessing polishes out there.

[SVR]

Hello Bence nice to see ya mate



For all of the Europe and USA guys who haven`t worked on as many subaru`s as I have, TOGWT hit the nail right on the head



Some of the Asian manufacturers are using isocyanate free paint systems and the paint is soft to extremely soft



In Australia we have tonnes of Subaru`s and other cars with this type of paint

Honda`s are shocking for this too



basically it all started to happen in the early 2000`s with Subaru paint having the now well known "STICKY PAINT" issue



The key with these paints is using a random orbital dynabrade polishing head, A Rupes LHR21E bigfoot RO polisher with 21mm orbit throw or any RO polisher only, no forced rotation



If you end up having to use an FR machine, then move the machine back and forth really quickly, about four times as fast as you would normally and you will not only not have any sticky paint issue but you can actually take out most or all of the orange peel



If anyone here only has a rotary to use then buy yourself some parrafin oil and apply it onto the pad with a fine spritz or a drop. this adds additional lubrication and if you can keep the rotary below 1200 to 1300 rpm which is easy to do these days with products like Xpert, Clearcoat solutions and 3D HD Uno`s single polish systems



just use a 75% water, 25% IPA mix to remove any stubborn residues of the oil



The dynabrade is the winner of all of them though, can annihilate defects, orange peel and achieve an insane clarity and gloss on soft paints with it.



Bence - I recommend you throw all those products away and give the Xpert 1500 High Tech single polish product a try. its made to correct soft paints and IMO is the best finishing and jewelling polish worldwide with an almost water like viscocity and because it doesn`t tear at the paint as 98% of the polishes ever made do, you will achieve superior finishes than before. its what I replaced the solvent based Menz PO85RD with.



its available from wax attack in the UK. trust me you will love it.



Here is the parrafin oil I use whenever I need extra lube such as when polishing Glasurit paints that have a tendancy to absorb lubricants from any polish

Products | Diggers Paraffin Oil | Recochem - Australia (http://www.recochem.com.au/index.php/products/consumer_products/oil_products/item/diggers_paraffin_oil)