Do you ever leave scratches on a 3 stage?

[LeMarque]

So this `03 M3 is my first `paint correction` job and is/was totally swirled and scratched. The major scratches I sanded. I`m Just about done using a 3401 with M105 and an LC Cyan Hydrotech. I plan on following up with M205 then maybe MENZ-PO87M; then a wax.



Swirls and minor scratches are gone. But what remains are a number of fine scratches that look like they came from brushing snow off with a broom; you have to really look hard to see them, although the car came from Fla.



I underbid `cause I wanted something to build my portfolio and I`ll try and pull it out into the daylite (there`s no sun today) and take some pics. I`ve tried to take pics in the shop but the lighting is terrible and I just can`t seem to capture the defects.



I guess what I`m asking is at what level of correction do you, if you do, say that`s the best it gets. Or should I just sand 3 dozen or so scratches and call it a lesson learned?

[Richard Grasa]

What exactly do you consider a 3-stage? Some people include LSP as a stage, some don`t, etc. Was this agreed with the customer to be a 100% correction? If so, then you need to remove the scratches unless they are so deep that the clear would be compromised by doing so. If it was just agreed as a 3-stage with no % of correction guaranteed, then you may be able to let them go and tell the customer it would require more work, therefor more $ to remove those scratches. It depends on what the customer is paying for and what was agreed before you began the detail. If there was no agreement that it would be 100% correction and the customer doesn`t want to have more work done, then I`d say leave them unless you want to put the extra work into it and eat the cost.

[LeMarque]

... unless they are so deep that the clear would be compromised by doing so. If it was just agreed as a 3-stage with no % of correction guaranteed, then you may be able to let them go and tell the customer it would require more work, ....



The paint measured all over the place. From 4.6 to 3.5. I`m not sanding 3.5. In any event, with say a 4.6 measurement, how many mils before you feel it`s gone to far?



Since it is my first paid correction, I am giving more then he`s paying for; hoping for referrals for my new business.

[LeMarque]

What exactly do you consider a 3-stage? Some people include LSP as a stage, some don`t, etc. ... then I`d say leave them unless you want to put the extra work into it and eat the cost.



Compound, polish, wax. Repeating myself, but I do need a `poster child` and since I just opened this month, I did the sanding, extra passes here and there, gratis. And the customer understands the reasons and has been told the price he`s paying is for advertising purposes :nomore:



Also, it came from a friends shop and when he sees the result, he`ll really show excitement when referring his customers to me.

[Accumulator]

LaMarque- Some sorta-random thoughts follow:

-It`s not a matter of (whole) mils, it`s about taking off maybe 2/3 a mil before things are getting risky

-Don`t thin the paint so much that it can never be corrected again, at least not without discussing it with the owner (and that`s assuming the owner understands this stuff)

-Generally, I`d only get as aggressive as you need to get *in order to satisfy the customer*. That means not thinning the clear a lot for reasons of your own



I mean...what if the paint fails a year or three from now because you thinned it too much? What if he comes back in a few months and you have to say "sorry, can`t polish it any more".

[Concours.John]

I take before and afters plus some fun shots and give copies on disc to each client. This maps the vehicle for the client and myself.



I let clients know up front I will remove defects that can be safely removed. There are sometimes defects that can be but until I know how well the client can keep up with maintenance it`s best to play it safe. At that point they can progressively be removed the next time if the only thing may be swirls injected after. Ive perfected vehicles only to have the owner slip into bad habits again and they end up discouraged.



Make sure to try and educated proper washing to help them. One thing I was requested to offer by DIY clients was a basic kit they could buy or a printed out list of things and procedures. (this can go a long way with people)



Or an upsell of a maintenance package could relieve them of worry can be brought up.



Always take pictures and don`t worry if maybe it`s not that great sell shot. As you build your portfolio you will get them.



Another thing to remember is if the vehicle happens to go to someone else. There are many too aggressive time watching places out there. The first thing they do is blame the guy before them if they go through. This is where documentation can save you.



Best of Luck with your Business!

[LeMarque]

LaMarque- Some sorta-random thoughts follow:

-It`s not a matter of (whole) mils, it`s about taking off maybe 2/3 a mil before things are getting risky

-Don`t thin the paint so much that it can never be corrected again, at least not without discussing it with the owner (and that`s assuming the owner understands this stuff)

-Generally, I`d only get as aggressive as you need to get *in order to satisfy the customer*. That means not thinning the clear a lot for reasons of your own



I mean...what if the paint fails a year or three from now because you thinned it too much? What if he comes back in a few months and you have to say "sorry, can`t polish it any more".



Thanks for the input.



I`m being extremely cautious and maybe a tad to cautious. But just to say, I`m using the Cobra Miracle Towel for the IPA wipe down and then taking my swirl finder light <thud> swirls! From just wiping it down. I checked it with a friend prior and the finish was perfect before the wipe down.



I`m going to try Menz 87M on a finishing pad tomorrow. Ever hear of anything like this before?

[LeMarque]

I take before and afters plus some fun shots and give copies on disc to each client. This maps the vehicle for the client and myself.



I let clients know up front I will remove defects that can be safely removed. There are sometimes defects that can be but until I know how well the client can keep up with maintenance it`s best to play it safe. At that point they can progressively be removed the next time if the only thing may be swirls injected after. Ive perfected vehicles only to have the owner slip into bad habits again and they end up discouraged.



Make sure to try and educated proper washing to help them. One thing I was requested to offer by DIY clients was a basic kit they could buy or a printed out list of things and procedures. (this can go a long way with people)



Or an upsell of a maintenance package could relieve them of worry can be brought up.



Always take pictures and don`t worry if maybe it`s not that great sell shot. As you build your portfolio you will get them.



Another thing to remember is if the vehicle happens to go to someone else. There are many too aggressive time watching places out there. The first thing they do is blame the guy before them if they go through. This is where documentation can save you.



Best of Luck with your Business!



Thanks John.



I did take before pics but somethings gone haywire. I`ll post back after I convince my Doc. to prescribe some Valium

[Accumulator]

Thanks for the input.



I`m being extremely cautious and maybe a tad to cautious. But just to say, I`m using the Cobra Miracle Towel for the IPA wipe down and then taking my swirl finder light <thud> swirls! From just wiping it down. I checked it with a friend prior and the finish was perfect before the wipe down.



I`m going to try Menz 87M on a finishing pad tomorrow. Ever hear of anything like this before?



Are you absolutely certain that the marring is new...from the wipedown? And that it`s not from some contamination that`s getting on the paint?



If so, then a) I`m not the best guy to ask as I simply won`t/don`t deal with "stupid-soft" clear (remember, I`m not a Pro ;) ) but also b) I`d be really leery of doing any el-perfecto, no-filler job on it as it`s just gonna get marred up again anyhow. Might be that it`s just not a good candidate for your exemplar.

[LeMarque]

Are you absolutely certain that the marring is new...from the wipedown? And that it`s not from some contamination that`s getting on the paint?



If so, then a) I`m not the best guy to ask as I simply won`t/don`t deal with "stupid-soft" clear (remember, I`m not a Pro ;) ) but also b) I`d be really leery of doing any el-perfecto, no-filler job on it as it`s just gonna get marred up again anyhow. Might be that it`s just not a good candidate for your exemplar.



Unless someone snuck acetone in my IPA mix, I can`t imagine. I`m using Cobra Miracle`s to carefully wipe down.



I figured I had done enough ‘polishing’ and maybe, just maybe, MF pads would bail me out.



So I said the heck with it, and out of desperation, I went for the Megs MF w/D301 finishing wax on their MF finishing pad w/ a DA and under my pseudo Brinkman in this DARK garage, it seems to have cleaned it all up!



What did I do wrong and why did the 301 finish it out sooo much better then menz on a green? Technique? I wasn’t leaning into the 3401, just moderate pressure at 4/5 with the LC CSS green.



I’ll won’t be 100% certain till I see it tomorrow in the daylight, but what I saw with my light, I don’t see any marring!



No more of this till I get my lighting issues corrected.



One stressed out and feeling incompetent, wana-be paint correction specialist -

[Junebug]

Sometimes cars have their own quirks. I did a G35 that wouldn`t finish down with anything but Menzerna FFII on a white LC foam pad. That`s why I still have little bottles of this and that in my cabinent. Cause you never know when Mr. Murphy will pay you a visit.

[Accumulator]

So I said the heck with it, and out of desperation, I went for the Megs MF w/D301 finishing wax on their MF finishing pad w/ a DA and under my pseudo Brinkman in this DARK garage, it seems to have cleaned it all up!



What did I do wrong and why did the 301 finish it out sooo much better then menz on a green?





IIRC, the 301 does a fair amount of concealing, so maybe that`s why it appears to leave a better finish than the Menzerna. Other than that, well...some paints just respond better/worse to certain combos.

[Concours.John]

Unless someone snuck acetone in my IPA mix, I can`t imagine. I`m using Cobra Miracle`s to carefully wipe down.



I figured I had done enough ‘polishing’ and maybe, just maybe, MF pads would bail me out.



So I said the heck with it, and out of desperation, I went for the Megs MF w/D301 finishing wax on their MF finishing pad w/ a DA and under my pseudo Brinkman in this DARK garage, it seems to have cleaned it all up!



What did I do wrong and why did the 301 finish it out sooo much better then menz on a green? Technique? I wasn’t leaning into the 3401, just moderate pressure at 4/5 with the LC CSS green.



I’ll won’t be 100% certain till I see it tomorrow in the daylight, but what I saw with my light, I don’t see any marring!



No more of this till I get my lighting issues corrected.



One stressed out and feeling incompetent, wana-be paint correction specialist -



I wouldn`t get discouraged after looking back I thought about a few vehicles with the same problem. One in particular had very soft clear. When you are wiping the oils off with IPA you are essentially dry wiping once they are removed. The paint is then very vulnerable to marring without any slickness to glide the towel over.



The Megs has oils in it that are creating a barrier from marring like wax. It might be time to add a polish and wax that are compatible without the IPA wipe in between. I`m sure others could chime in on some good combo`s.

[LeMarque]

I wouldn`t get discouraged after looking back I thought about a few vehicles with the same problem. One in particular had very soft clear. When you are wiping the oils off with IPA you are essentially dry wiping once they are removed. The paint is then very vulnerable to marring without any slickness to glide the towel over.



The Megs has oils in it that are creating a barrier from marring like wax. It might be time to add a polish and wax that are compatible without the IPA wipe in between. I`m sure others could chime in on some good combo`s.



Was going to start a new thread, but ...



Since I`ve buffed the M3 with Megs D301 and because if I look at the paint on this car it starts to mar, I feel Collonite 845 would be the go to product. Question is, can I apply 845 over D301? If I have to do a wipe down of any sort, I`m going to end up with marring yet again.



If not 845, is there anything I can apply on top of D301 to offer some protection against marring?

[Thomas Dekany]

301 hides. I don`t have much time right now, but I`ll be back and type up my opinion.




Unless someone snuck acetone in my IPA mix, I can`t imagine. I`m using Cobra Miracle`s to carefully wipe down.



I figured I had done enough ‘polishing’ and maybe, just maybe, MF pads would bail me out.



So I said the heck with it, and out of desperation, I went for the Megs MF w/D301 finishing wax on their MF finishing pad w/ a DA and under my pseudo Brinkman in this DARK garage, it seems to have cleaned it all up!



What did I do wrong and why did the 301 finish it out sooo much better then menz on a green? Technique? I wasn’t leaning into the 3401, just moderate pressure at 4/5 with the LC CSS green.



I’ll won’t be 100% certain till I see it tomorrow in the daylight, but what I saw with my light, I don’t see any marring!



No more of this till I get my lighting issues corrected.



One stressed out and feeling incompetent, wana-be paint correction specialist -