Everyone stop your polishing!!

[Grimm]

In case you don`t remember it, I started this thread a couple months ago: http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing/138693-polish-not-polish.html



Well the thread from said car forum got bumped a couple more times recently with comments. Today the guy that said polishing is a waste of time made a comment (in response to a comment I made about people polishing new high end sports cars, and another guy commenting he polished paint work at a Jaguar dealer). Apparently we are ruining our paint with polishing, so you had all better stop now.



"SOME ins Co`s. will pay for "color sand and buff" if the work you are to match, has already had that done somewhere.



High end exotics are re-worked, just like average production line cars on an "as needed" basis. Not by standard proceedure, of course there are hand built (non-assembly line) high end cars, that may have a team of guys give each unit special attention. These would be relitively low volume makes.



If you study (or have worked throughout, for some time) the evolution of automotive paints, you understand that at one point, ACRYLIC lacquer, was the most widely used automotive paint. Although it was not standard operating prceedure to buff ACRYLIC lacquer at assembly plants, the paint was made to be buffed in the aftermarket, bodyshop, repair biz, like the nitrocellulose lacquer commomly used previously.



The ACRYLIC enamels, were NEVER intended to be buffed, and by doing so, you would defeat properties of the finish, just like the ALKYD enamel, used prior.



Todays commonly used automotive refinish products are often referred to as "Euro Paints" because they were widely used in Europe, before the States. These are the ACRYLIC urethanes and POLY urethanes. Ironic thing....Nasa was instrumental in using Acrylic urethane on the Mecury Redstone, rocket project in the early 60`s. They say Nasa stuff finds it`s way into societal use.



Anyway, these urethanes became the current industry standard. They are sometimes called Urethane ENAMELS. When they first came to market there were implicite instructions not to be buffed. That was one of the big selling points. They dryed to a high gloss, like other enamels that were not intended to be color sanded and buffed. As a matter of fact, there were warning labels about the detriment of breaking the "skin" of the finish and introducing microscopic cracking in the top coat, not only from the wetsanding, but the heat from the buffing wheel as well.



I fought and rebeled against this new paint, because it didn`t have the flat, orange peel free finish, that the lacquers did, after buffing. Many guys would buff ANYWAY, and it was more difficult to buff than the lacquer that was made to be buffed.



On non-clear coat, metalic colors, the paint would "scallop" as you wet sanded, again like other enamels.



So many refinshers would buff this new paint, as if it were the lacquer they`d been using for years, that I BELIEVE, the market place decided to sell the buffing supplies anyway. Eventually the paint can labels or instruction sheets began to include buffing directions for "when desired", warning to use new 2000-3000 grit sandpapers, and foam buffing pads and "low speed" buffers, etc."

[hacadacalopolis]

In case you don`t remember it, I started this thread a couple months ago: http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine-polishing/138693-polish-not-polish.html



Well the thread from said car forum got bumped a couple more times recently with comments. Today the guy that said polishing is a waste of time made a comment (in response to a comment I made about people polishing new high end sports cars, and another guy commenting he polished paint work at a Jaguar dealer). Apparently we are ruining our paint with polishing, so you had all better stop now.



"SOME ins Co`s. will pay for "color sand and buff" if the work you are to match, has already had that done somewhere.



High end exotics are re-worked, just like average production line cars on an "as needed" basis. Not by standard proceedure, of course there are hand built (non-assembly line) high end cars, that may have a team of guys give each unit special attention. These would be relitively low volume makes.



If you study (or have worked throughout, for some time) the evolution of automotive paints, you understand that at one point, ACRYLIC lacquer, was the most widely used automotive paint. Although it was not standard operating prceedure to buff ACRYLIC lacquer at assembly plants, the paint was made to be buffed in the aftermarket, bodyshop, repair biz, like the nitrocellulose lacquer commomly used previously.



The ACRYLIC enamels, were NEVER intended to be buffed, and by doing so, you would defeat properties of the finish, just like the ALKYD enamel, used prior.



Todays commonly used automotive refinish products are often referred to as "Euro Paints" because they were widely used in Europe, before the States. These are the ACRYLIC urethanes and POLY urethanes. Ironic thing....Nasa was instrumental in using Acrylic urethane on the Mecury Redstone, rocket project in the early 60`s. They say Nasa stuff finds it`s way into societal use.



Anyway, these urethanes became the current industry standard. They are sometimes called Urethane ENAMELS. When they first came to market there were implicite instructions not to be buffed. That was one of the big selling points. They dryed to a high gloss, like other enamels that were not intended to be color sanded and buffed. As a matter of fact, there were warning labels about the detriment of breaking the "skin" of the finish and introducing microscopic cracking in the top coat, not only from the wetsanding, but the heat from the buffing wheel as well.



I fought and rebeled against this new paint, because it didn`t have the flat, orange peel free finish, that the lacquers did, after buffing. Many guys would buff ANYWAY, and it was more difficult to buff than the lacquer that was made to be buffed.



On non-clear coat, metalic colors, the paint would "scallop" as you wet sanded, again like other enamels.



So many refinshers would buff this new paint, as if it were the lacquer they`d been using for years, that I BELIEVE, the market place decided to sell the buffing supplies anyway. Eventually the paint can labels or instruction sheets began to include buffing directions for "when desired", warning to use new 2000-3000 grit sandpapers, and foam buffing pads and "low speed" buffers, etc."





I dont understand your point.?



sanding single stage metallic?Why...dont bother



First off the EPA is coming down hard on solvents; the transition of waterbase paints(basecoat) will eventually be a collision set compliance in U.S.



Each and every factory is different, but today most billion dollar industries are using electrostatic dipping and spraying that help acheive their flawless mirror flat finish. No need to abrade the surface> Therefore reducing the maintanence of fresh paint.



Also this whole polish-not-to-polish thing, I dont get that either.

- Paint correction when done correctly is a process of servicing and repairing.



cutting,buffing, polishing, finishing is artwork, always will be.

[C. Charles Hahn]

their flawless mirror flat finish



Whose flawless mirror flat finish? The majority of cars produced today have just as bad if not worse orange peel than cars made 10-20 years ago.

[Lotuseffect]

I read this post the other day and decided not to comment. So I just read it again, and I still cant figure out what the OP`s point is........I just scrolled up and read it again. Still dont know *** is the point here. Maybe I need to start taking Ginko or something.

[hacadacalopolis]

Charlie,



Auto Conductive Coatings is the only answer i have for you.

Unless a factorys dealer has it undergo detailing, the car`s paint is defect free with electrostatic aid.



Have you ever noticed how oem replacement panels sometimes come with an E-COAT where the primer is perfectly flat and uniform from the magnestism.



I cant be the only one seeing this. Iv`e seen brand new nissans and audis already with perfect paint on it.

[Grimm]

I guess I`m not sure what wasn`t clear above. To paraphrase from the thread on another forum, this painter thinks polishing is a waste of time. He says he can get a perfect finish with his painting abilities and his paint booth; and if polishing is required, the painter doesn`t know what they are doing. Now he`s continued by saying the modern paints being used aren`t even supposed to be polished because it will compromise the paint. I wasn`t making a point, I was merely being sarcastic and wondered what anyone else things of his claims.

[hacadacalopolis]

Grimm how bout you give me a hyperlink to the thread you had, so i can get a look

[MarcHarris]

I think it`s somewhat of an odd topic. Clear-coated finished were designed to not need cutting and buffing like other paint jobs. This was the amazing thing about this new technology. You no longer had to buff the paint. You no longer had to wax the paint. Your red car wouldn`t turn pink and your black car wouldn`t turn grey!



Car enthusiasts took this to another level. They decided this improved finish still wasn`t good enough. Keep in mind that all these technology changes have a lot to do with catering to the majority of the population: not crazy Autopians looking for a truly "perfect" finish.

[David Fermani]

It`s pure nonsense about OEM or refinish paint not being able/allowed to be buffed. OEM paint manufacturers have close relationships with several detail manufacturers for the main reason because of the need for correction at the factory level. Most car manufacturers (through their paint suppliers) permit certain levels of paint removal for defects and warranty repairs. This all goes against what this person is claiming.



This guy obviously doesn`t know how to work on paint without overheating it. He also doesn`t have good eyes if he thinks refinish paint can be sprayed "perfectly". I know several shops that ship their paint work straight out of the booth, but they all look terrible (not perfect).



I`d also like to see the link to this discussion.

[Grimm]

I`d really rather not post the link, but I`m sure you can easily find it if you try. Suffice to say, his whole angle is about maximizing profit by not wasting time polishing, which is fine. But then he kept sticking to his guns that polishing isn`t even needed if you know how to paint properly. One of his other tidbits was that they don`t buff cars at the factory, so why should they need it? Then of course someone debunked that by saying they knew people that do this job at the factory.

[the other pc]

Well, I pasted a block of the text into Google and it came up.



Arrrgh. There`s five minutes of my life I`ll never get back.



Dude`s got bigger problems than his painting skills.



Don`t even bother with it. Every time some server retrieves his posts the planet becomes a stupider place. And the environment can`t afford that much more stupid.

[hacadacalopolis]

I`d really rather not post the link, but I`m sure you can easily find it if you try. Suffice to say, his whole angle is about maximizing profit by not wasting time polishing, which is fine. But then he kept sticking to his guns that polishing isn`t even needed if you know how to paint properly. One of his other tidbits was that they don`t buff cars at the factory, so why should they need it? Then of course someone debunked that by saying they knew people that do this job at the factory.



Grimm i can understand that,



U know at autoschool we would do just this to see how flat you can get the paint with hvlp. And it is achievable, and it should be considered a rarity. This is why A good painter must also be so good at Full wet coating.



At shop We would practice on anything but namely for this it was mechanic drawer bins. The refinishing equipment and booth were tip top. We would use multifunction downdraft booth with temperature adjustment. The guns involved in trying to get this best atomized paint was IWATA, SATAjet. In the end we concluded that not all areas of the surfaces being painted will recieve the same transfer efficiency,And In trying to do so it is too time consuming, Plus there is no room for any application errors. I have seen many outstanding aftermarket spray jobs on older vehicles, they only problem is if the detailing is poor it will show.



You will read im sure in some hot rod magazines that some guys will sand the entire basecoat or clearcoat over and over before putting on a final show coat.



I see your point now, just didnt earlier. Perspectives