D300 Ok to use on Fresh Paint??

[MusicMan]

Hey i have a couple of fresh paint questions here. I got a call from a custom paint shop wanting me to polish out a car they just repainted...they`re going to do the sanding and then the first main cut to remove the sanding marks, but then want us to come in and remove the swirls and polish it out.



Couple questions (hoping some of the vets on the forum will chime in for this one too).



First, do you think its ok for me to let these guys do the first pass to remove sanding marks or should i insist i do it? I`m unfamiliar with a rotary still so thats why i didn`t volunteer, but feedback on this would be nice.



Secondly, as the title says, can i use D300 to cut the paint and then use Megs 205 to polish it out? I`m unsure of if these are `bodyshop safe` products or not, obviously i can`t wax it when im finished since its fresh paint. I`m going to be using a D.A so 105 with a rotary is a no go for me at this point (Gotta find a car i can practice a rotary on lol!)



Third, any tips on working with fresh paint? Never done it before other than wash it, and i found even washing it to be rather difficult to do since the paint is TOTALLY without wax, was hard to dry it without getting streaks...so like i said, any tips are appreciated.



Much appreciated guys thanks!

[Ron Ketcham]

Start off with finding out what "paint" they applied.

1K or 2K, single stage or a base clear.

Which reducer, as far as regular or fast, etc.

These are indicators of how to proceed as and makes a difference regarding what the paint will accept for the work.

Grumpy

[RaskyR1]

I`ve had it work well on fully cured repaints, but you may have some micro marring on fresh stuff. Only way to know for sure is to do a test panel. M105/M205 with foam will likely do better than D300/MF though.



IME fresh paint seems to like rotary polishers more that DA. There just seems to be something about the movement of that DA that can often haze like crazy on fresh repaints.



That being said, I`ve wet sanded and finished down many repainted cars with a DA without issue.



This baby finished out amazing with M205 via DA.



http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i288/Raskyr1/mlc/IMG_2481.jpg



http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i288/Raskyr1/mlc/IMG_2514.jpg



http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i288/Raskyr1/mlc/IMG_2508.jpg

[C. Charles Hahn]

A couple other questions I`d ask the shop in addition to Grumpy`s suggestions:



1) How long has the paint had to cure (just the minimum time indicated on the P-sheet for the clear coat they used, or longer?) -- The less time the paint has had to cure and out-gas, the softer it will be.



2) What will they be sanding with (by hand or DA, what grits) and what will they use for the first buffing pass? -- The coarser the grit they finish sanding with, the greater the risk of deep tracers (or pigtails) you may have to deal with; same goes for their buffing medium and just how scoured the paint will be.



One thing I can say is that D300 should be body shop safe, but I wouldn`t use an MF pad on super fresh paint since you`ll be likely to get a lot of hazing and with a pad that grabby, you could also delaminate the paint from the panel if it isn`t fully cross-linked. If you want to use D300 on a foam pad (yes, it does work, and quite well in fact -- the cut falls somewhere between M105 and UC) that should be fine. Maybe D300 on a tangerine HT followed by M205 on a crimson HT would be a good combination, but it depends on what you`re given to work with and how bad the defects are.

[David Fermani]

You certainly don`t need to use a rotary on fresh paint. I`ve turned over a bunch of body shops into using a DA on their refinish work. They use M105 w/Meg`s MF and Menzerna 85rd w/ LC White. The only problem with using D300 would be that it has silicone in it and can cause problems IN A SHOP ENVIRONMENT. Not on fresh paint worked on outside of a body shop environment.



Have them sand their own work and request that they use 3M 1500 & 3000 Trizact discs and you`ll be fine. Especially with a DA.



Plus, feel free to use either Opti-Coat or Optimum Car Wax after too. It`s totally safe for fresh paint.

[David Fermani]

AOne thing I can say is that D300 should be body shop safe, but I wouldn`t use an MF pad on super fresh paint since you`ll be likely to get a lot of hazing and with a pad that grabby, you could also delaminate the paint from the panel if it isn`t fully cross-linked.



Grabby? MF runs cooler, cuts quicker and can be run longer than foam in a correction application. I`d have to say that`s a better characteristic to have when working with fresh paint.

[C. Charles Hahn]

Grabby? MF runs cooler, cuts quicker and can be run longer than foam in a correction application. I`d have to say that`s a better characteristic to have when working with fresh paint.



I call it grabby because each microfiber strand is individually moving against the paint in a twisting motion, in what I would consider to be a semi-independent manner. You get a bunch of those twisting in slightly different directions at once while going over a spot where the cross-linking is weak, and you risk wrinkling the paint. With foam you get less of that effect simply because the cells of the pad aren`t moving in an autonomous rolling pattern. That would be my only real concern.

[David Fermani]

Keep in mind of these 2 things:

1- each stand is not individually moving against the paint. They are coated with product and get matted down almost immediatley. It`s not like each one is "grabbing" at the surface of the paint. More like they`re rubbing across it.

2- Paint is almost fully cured and cross linked within a few hours of being sprayed. After that there`s not a high risk of wrinkling as long as you use proper care (pressure) and avoid heat. The nice thing about the MF pads is that they work great at lower/safer ranges unlike stiff foams. This can reduce exposure to problems like when polishing plastic parts (bumpers).

[MusicMan]

First off thanks for all the replies from everyone, now i`ll address them one by one :)




Start off with finding out what "paint" they applied.

1K or 2K, single stage or a base clear.

Which reducer, as far as regular or fast, etc.

These are indicators of how to proceed as and makes a difference regarding what the paint will accept for the work.

Grumpy



Its for sure base/clear and i believe PPG clear but ill have to check to be sure. I of course will do a test spot. Im not really keen on a lot of paint lingo (though im learning more than i thought i would lol)...but as for 1k and 2k , that has to do with the `thickness` of the paint doesnt it? Elaborate for me if you could please :)




I`ve had it work well on fully cured repaints, but you may have some micro marring on fresh stuff. Only way to know for sure is to do a test panel. M105/M205 with foam will likely do better than D300/MF though.



IME fresh paint seems to like rotary polishers more that DA. There just seems to be something about the movement of that DA that can often haze like crazy on fresh repaints.



That being said, I`ve wet sanded and finished down many repainted cars with a DA without issue.



This baby finished out amazing with M205 via DA.



http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i288/Raskyr1/mlc/IMG_2481.jpg



http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i288/Raskyr1/mlc/IMG_2514.jpg



http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i288/Raskyr1/mlc/IMG_2508.jpg



I was hearing your `it likes rotarys better` comment until you posted your pics lol...that turned out beautifully, what color was that paint (the silver i mean). I`m usually not a silver fan but, with the black stripes in the middle...thats a very nice contrast, great work




A couple other questions I`d ask the shop in addition to Grumpy`s suggestions:



1) How long has the paint had to cure (just the minimum time indicated on the P-sheet for the clear coat they used, or longer?) -- The less time the paint has had to cure and out-gas, the softer it will be.



2) What will they be sanding with (by hand or DA, what grits) and what will they use for the first buffing pass? -- The coarser the grit they finish sanding with, the greater the risk of deep tracers (or pigtails) you may have to deal with; same goes for their buffing medium and just how scoured the paint will be.



One thing I can say is that D300 should be body shop safe, but I wouldn`t use an MF pad on super fresh paint since you`ll be likely to get a lot of hazing and with a pad that grabby, you could also delaminate the paint from the panel if it isn`t fully cross-linked. If you want to use D300 on a foam pad (yes, it does work, and quite well in fact -- the cut falls somewhere between M105 and UC) that should be fine. Maybe D300 on a tangerine HT followed by M205 on a crimson HT would be a good combination, but it depends on what you`re given to work with and how bad the defects are.



Ill contact them and find out more info for sure. This is not my first experience with this car, i actually detailed it for the owner a few months back...he ended up having something eat through the paint shortly there after and went to have it repainted AGAIN. The shop this time contacted me to cut and polish it before giving it back.




You certainly don`t need to use a rotary on fresh paint. I`ve turned over a bunch of body shops into using a DA on their refinish work. They use M105 w/Meg`s MF and Menzerna 85rd w/ LC White. The only problem with using D300 would be that it has silicone in it and can cause problems IN A SHOP ENVIRONMENT. Not on fresh paint worked on outside of a body shop environment.



Have them sand their own work and request that they use 3M 1500 & 3000 Trizact discs and you`ll be fine. Especially with a DA.



Plus, feel free to use either Opti-Coat or Optimum Car Wax after too. It`s totally safe for fresh paint.



David, thanks for the reply. Maybe you can clear up a little bit of lingo for me here. You say the silicone in D300 could cause issues in Body Shop Environment but not on fresh paint. I guess i`ve misunderstood the term `body shop environment`...i always figured it meant `when dealing with fresh paint`...but apparently thats not all there is to it since you say the D300 would be no problem on fresh paint just as long as its not in a body shop. Is there a risk of some of the dust or something getting onto/into an area of the shop it SHOULDN`T and thus the potential issue of using D300 IN A SHOP?



Could you elaborate also on why D300 would be ok outside of a body shop even though it has silicone in it (doesn`t silicone create a sort of layer over the paint that could tamper with the paint gassing out?)



I`m guessing you like using a DA in body shops since you say you`ve turned over a lot of them into using DAs to finish off the paint?

I`ve always had pretty bad dusting issues and quick dry times with 105 and the DA...Is it better with a MF pad, or maybe you can give a couple suggestions as to how to deal with this? Might be due to me living in Az and the humidity here is about -50% lol



LASTLY...and then ill get out of your hair, but i didn`t know Opti-coat or Optimum car waxes (all of them??) are totally safe on fresh paint??? It doesn`t mess with the curing of the paint? What are you experiences with it? The only reason i wont do OC is because the owner really likes the look of true waxes on the car and since OC doesn`t really allow a wax to be applied to it that sort of turned him away from it (this is a garage queen/show car not a DD). He was thinking of having extra protection applied to it rather than just wax, thinking more of a sealant first (open to suggestions...preferably one that will allow a topper wax to be applied) and then topping with something like Pinnacle Souveran Paste or something of that nature.



Hope i`m not tying up too much of your time, but this is my first `body shop` experience so i want to have all my `I`s dotted and `T`s crossed and don`t want any mishaps on my end...thus the reason for all the ?`s lol. Plus this being a custom paint shop...if i go in and do my thing, make a great impression, could turn out to be consistent work on very nice cars/paint jobs.



Thanks everyone.

[C. Charles Hahn]

David, thanks for the reply. Maybe you can clear up a little bit of lingo for me here. You say the silicone in D300 could cause issues in Body Shop Environment but not on fresh paint. I guess i`ve misunderstood the term `body shop environment`...i always figured it meant `when dealing with fresh paint`...but apparently thats not all there is to it since you say the D300 would be no problem on fresh paint just as long as its not in a body shop. Is there a risk of some of the dust or something getting onto/into an area of the shop it SHOULDN`T and thus the potential issue of using D300 IN A SHOP?



Could you elaborate also on why D300 would be ok outside of a body shop even though it has silicone in it (doesn`t silicone create a sort of layer over the paint that could tamper with the paint gassing out?)



"Body shop safe" is a term that even I am guilty of misusing sometimes (like earlier in this thread :o) -- when you use a product containing silicone in a common area shared with vehicles being prepped for paint and/or being painted, the particles created while buffing can become airborne and stay in the air for a considerable period of time. If they land on a panel before it is painted or while it is being painted, it can cause fisheyes in the finish.



That said, if you`re working on the car outside the shop or in a dedicated area away from the rest of the shop you are probably fine to use whatever products you want.




I`m guessing you like using a DA in body shops since you say you`ve turned over a lot of them into using DAs to finish off the paint?

I`ve always had pretty bad dusting issues and quick dry times with 105 and the DA...Is it better with a MF pad, or maybe you can give a couple suggestions as to how to deal with this? Might be due to me living in Az and the humidity here is about -50% lol



105 doesn`t dust anywhere near as bad with an MF disc as it does with foam... but M105 is going to dust, period. It`s not really an issue, just a side-effect of the product (most compounds you find out there are going to dust to a certain extent) that you have to get used to and deal with.




LASTLY...and then ill get out of your hair, but i didn`t know Opti-coat or Optimum car waxes (all of them??) are totally safe on fresh paint??? It doesn`t mess with the curing of the paint? What are you experiences with it?



Not Opti-Coat, Opti-Seal. OS and the OCW spray are both fresh paint safe.

[MusicMan]

"Body shop safe" is a term that even I am guilty of misusing sometimes (like earlier in this thread :o) -- when you use a product containing silicone in a common area shared with vehicles being prepped for paint and/or being painted, the particles created while buffing can become airborne and stay in the air for a considerable period of time. If they land on a panel before it is painted or while it is being painted, it can cause fisheyes in the finish.



That said, if you`re working on the car outside the shop or in a dedicated area away from the rest of the shop you are probably fine to use whatever products you want.







105 doesn`t dust anywhere near as bad with an MF disc as it does with foam... but M105 is going to dust, period. It`s not really an issue, just a side-effect of the product (most compounds you find out there are going to dust to a certain extent) that you have to get used to and deal with.







Not Opti-Coat, Opti-Seal. OS and the OCW spray are both fresh paint safe.



Thanks for the reply :). I think i`ve finally wrapped my head around the `body shop` term ..thank you. As for the dust with 105, yes i know dust is an issue with any compound, even D300 (even though its LESS) does dust some. Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover dusted like crazy when i tried it with my Flex lol. Does 105 have a slightly longer buff cycle with a MF bad than it does with the standard foam pad (since the MF doesn`t suck up the product like foam does)?



Thats the main thing i was worried about, but then again maybe I`m doing too many passes (i usually just do my regular 5-6) with 105? I`ve gotten better with it but sometimes depending upon the paint it still likes to dry up really fast on me it seems.



and:




Plus, feel free to use either Opti-Coat or Optimum Car Wax after too. It`s totally safe for fresh paint.



David said Opti-COAT...not sealant, thus my reason for asking :)

[C. Charles Hahn]

Thanks for the reply :). I think i`ve finally wrapped my head around the `body shop` term ..thank you. As for the dust with 105, yes i know dust is an issue with any compound, even D300 (even though its LESS) does dust some. Pinnacle Advanced Swirl Remover dusted like crazy when i tried it with my Flex lol. Does 105 have a slightly longer buff cycle with a MF bad than it does with the standard foam pad (since the MF doesn`t suck up the product like foam does)?



Correct; M105 does have a slightly longer buffing cycle -- not a lot longer, but enough longer that it makes the product more effective IME.




Thats the main thing i was worried about, but then again maybe I`m doing too many passes (i usually just do my regular 5-6) with 105? I`ve gotten better with it but sometimes depending upon the paint it still likes to dry up really fast on me it seems.








and:



David said Opti-COAT...not sealant, thus my reason for asking :)



He may be aware of something I`m not... everything I`ve heard and read (including from Optimum) says OS and OCW are fine, but that OC shouldn`t be applied for at least a few weeks, if not a month on fresh paints.

[MusicMan]

Correct; M105 does have a slightly longer buffing cycle -- not a lot longer, but enough longer that it makes the product more effective IME.



He may be aware of something I`m not... everything I`ve heard and read (including from Optimum) says OS and OCW are fine, but that OC shouldn`t be applied for at least a few weeks, if not a month on fresh paints.



A slightly longer cycle would be nice :). I`ll give it a shot for sure. I had heard OC had to wait for the paint to finish curing as well but, like you said maybe David knows somthing we don`t...or maybe it was a late night `oops` while tired and he meant Opti-seal instead.



Im curious though, even if it is OS or any Optimum wax, how does it NOT tamper with the paint curing?

[autoaesthetica]

Probably proprietary info - but obviously its related to the makeup of the product and the polymer selections used.



I have many times used OCW, a few layers even, on freshly painted areas with absolutely no issues down the road.

[David Fermani]

Charlie hit the nail on the head in regards to silicone, body shops and M105 having a ton longer and easier working cycles when used with MF pads.




"Not Opti-Coat, Opti-Seal. OS and the OCW spray are both fresh paint safe.




Thanks for the reply :). David said Opti-COAT...not sealant, thus my reason for asking :)




He may be aware of something I`m not... everything I`ve heard and read (including from Optimum) says OS and OCW are fine, but that OC shouldn`t be applied for at least a few weeks, if not a month on fresh paints.




I had heard OC had to wait for the paint to finish curing as well but, like you said maybe David knows somthing we don`t...or maybe it was a late night `oops` while tired and he meant Opti-seal instead.



Im curious though, even if it is OS or any Optimum wax, how does it NOT tamper with the paint curing?



I was never aware that Opti-Seal is safe to be used on fresh paint, but Dr. G & I have discussed their Car Wax & Opti-Coat being totally safe on freshly painted surfaces (within single digit days). I do have an e-mail out to him for 100% confirmation though. Remember, David has been directly involved with the refinish industry for a long time and I totally trust his opinion. Because Opti-Coat has so many similarities/properties as actual clearcoat paint, it can be applied in short sequence after refinish as well.