Should I remove multiple SG layers before I clay, or after?

[Passrat]

I`ve got many layers of Klasse SG (About 10-12) on my Passat and it looks great, but the paint underneath has some light swirls and blemishes because I didn`t have a machine back then, so I`m going to strip and polish it with some Menzerna Intensive and then Micro Polish and a new PC I just got. I was advised to strip it with IPA before polishing, but should I do it before I clay, or after?

[Envious Eric]

you dont have that many layers on actually....strip it with a citrus wash mixed with APC or some dawn dish soap! polish, and re-seal it!

[khjr]

I`ve got many layers of Klasse SG (About 10-12) on my Passat and it looks great, but the paint underneath has some light swirls and blemishes because I didn`t have a machine back then, so I`m going to strip and polish it with some Menzerna Intensive and then Micro Polish and a new PC I just got. I was advised to strip it with IPA before polishing, but should I do it before I clay, or after?



I`ve read a few postings saying that (1) a heavy layer of any LSP can gum up your pad during polish, and (2) heavy layers of any LSP are still quite thin and indiscernible with a paint thickness Gage.



That said, I`d clay first under the premise that the impurities you`re removing (brake dust, whatever) are quite thick relative to the layers of Klasse you`re pulling them out of, so you`ll be catching them whether the LSP is removed or not. After that, I`d remove the Klasse with 50/50 rubbing alcohol and water. I`ve never tried the washes mentioned above. I`ve read that Klasse has an acidic ph, thus am surprised to hear that a citrus wash is effective at dissolving it.



I did this exact process a few weeks ago, and was surprised how much Klasse residue came off on the towel with the IPA solvent. I understand the argument that layers generally remove previous layers, but Klasse does seem to build up pretty well in spite of that.

[Alex Boyce]

you dont have that many layers on actually....strip it with a citrus wash mixed with APC or some dawn dish soap! polish, and re-seal it!



:hifive: Just clay after you strip it, then polish, and re-seal.

[Accumulator]

Well, he *might* have that many layers on there, who`s to say :nixweiss Most I ever did was six, and/but I *did* have that many. That`s what I usually do..layer up six over the course of a week or so and then just wash for ages.



KSG is one product that definitely does layer if you do it properly. Easy to test and the results are blatantly obvious. It`s as much of a "case closed" situation as any detailing debate I can think of.



Yeah, I`d strip first, unless you want to *not* redo the KSG, in which case I`d just clay the contamination off the existing KSG with something like Sonus Green Ultra-Fine Clay. Unless you`re really heavy handed about it you should be able to do that without claying through the KSG (I do it all the time).



Hey, Passrat, note that I`m still trying to get you to just wait until spring to redo everything ;)

[RaskyR1]

Well, he *might* have that many layers on there, who`s to say :nixweiss Most I ever did was six, and/but I *did* have that many. That`s what I usually do..layer up six over the course of a week or so and then just wash for ages.



KSG is one product that definitely does layer if you do it properly. Easy to test and the results are blatantly obvious. It`s as much of a "case closed" situation as any detailing debate I can think of.

Yeah, I`d strip first, unless you want to *not* redo the KSG, in which case I`d just clay the contamination off the existing KSG with something like Sonus Green Ultra-Fine Clay. Unless you`re really heavy handed about it you should be able to do that without claying through the KSG (I do it all the time).



Hey, Passrat, note that I`m still trying to get you to just wait until spring to redo everything ;)



Curious on this...





The only testing I`ve seen where they actually took equipment capable of measuring such a thin coating all showed the thickness to peak after 2 coats, the 3rd lessened the over all thickness.



Of course they weren`t using KSG, so if you have any evidence I`d be interested in seeing it as layering is always an interesting debate. ;)

[vecdran]

Yeah, you`ll want to strip it. I made the mistake of polishing my car two weeks after applying SV Samurai to it without using something to strip the wax. The wax completely gummed up my pads and screwed with my polish. The polish was turning watery and I had little balls of wax rolling up and flying everywhere under the pad. This was just one layer of wax too. It was a mess!

[Accumulator]

Curious on this...





The only testing I`ve seen where they actually took equipment capable of measuring such a thin coating all showed the thickness to peak after 2 coats, the 3rd lessened the over all thickness.



Of course they weren`t using KSG, so if you have any evidence I`d be interested in seeing it as layering is always an interesting debate. ;)



Yeah, I too consider layering an interesting topic for debate...well, as long as the debate remains amicable and people don`t try to tell me that I haven`t experienced what I clearly have ;) Heh heh, yeah...I can get a bit :angry when people suggest, uhm...insulting things instead of just saying "hey, YMMV".



And hey, I really do consider myself impartial on this subject. It either obviously happens, IME, or it doesn`t. Some products that I *wish* would layer simply don`t for me, so I don`t waste time/effort/product trying to make it happen. Those products that *do* layer for me, in a clearcut, "yeah, this is obvious!" way, well *those* I do bother applying over and over.



SO, that said, and noting that this isn`t the most scientifically correct testing imaginable...



Multiple applications of KSG simply last longer (by any empirically discernible measure- slickness, plasticy feel, beading vs. sheeting..yeah yeah...I know..., shedding of contamination, you name it) than adjacent areas that were treated with fewer applications. This is with equalized starting times/etc.



Quick summary: apply KSG to a panel. Affect numerous applications, ~24 hours apart, on one section of the panel. Apply one final application to the whole panel (to equalize the start times for the observation period). Treat all portions of the panel the same way and observe until there`s some discernible change.



IME the area with more layers doesn`t undergo change as quickly as the section with fewer layers. Six layers/applications lasts *me* over a year; the most I get out of four is about eight months. Two applications only last about four months at best.



This can be as dramatic as one portion of a hood/etc. that`s still "freshly LSPed" standing out in the midst of the rest of the panel, which is simply, by any normal measure, "not LSPed any more".



KSG is one product that *always* acts this way for me. Simple as that.



Oh, and the test I`ve read about where thickness diminished with subsequent applications was, IIRC, with Collinite 915 on silicon wafers. My only Collinite paste wax experience is with 476S and I`ve had differing experiences when attempting to layer that. I never figured out what caused the inconsistent results, but I`ve pretty much given up on layering 476S beyond two applications a few days apart. BUT, my layering efforts on winter wheels seemed to indicate that it *did* layer, so I go ahead and do multiple applications, a few days apart, on those (with the realization that it might be a waste).

[RaskyR1]

Quick summary: apply KSG to a panel. Affect numerous applications, ~24 hours apart, on one section of the panel. Apply one final application to the whole panel (to equalize the start times for the observation period). Treat all portions of the panel the same way and observe until there`s some discernible change.



IME the area with more layers doesn`t undergo change as quickly as the section with fewer layers. Six layers/applications lasts *me* over a year; the most I get out of four is about eight months. Two applications only last about four months at best.



This can be as dramatic as one portion of a hood/etc. that`s still "freshly LSPed" standing out in the midst of the rest of the panel, which is simply, by any normal measure, "not LSPed any more".



KSG is one product that *always* acts this way for me. Simple as that.



Oh, and the test I`ve read about where thickness diminished with subsequent applications was, IIRC, with Collinite 915 on silicon wafers. My only Collinite paste wax experience is with 476S and I`ve had differing experiences when attempting to layer that. I never figured out what caused the inconsistent results, but I`ve pretty much given up on layering 476S beyond two applications a few days apart. BUT, my layering efforts on winter wheels seemed to indicate that it *did* layer, so I go ahead and do multiple applications, a few days apart, on those (with the realization that it might be a waste).



Thanks for sharing Accumulator! :wavey



The Collinite on the silicon wafers is the test I was referreing too. There is another thread as well where they tested Vintage, Opti-Seal, Z8, and Red Mist with the same results.



Wax and Sealant thicknesses - Detailing World (http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=130901)







Something I found most interesting was the comment made by Dave KG....it definitely gets you thinking! :D




Durability is a very hard thing to gauge - measuring the protection in the first instance is not easy, relying on water behaviur for such measurements is a good way to get misleading results - a product can be protecting but loose its water properties due to bonded contaimination in the paintwork that would affect all LSPs for example.



I see notably better durability from two layers of a wax - but, I wonder if this is because my first layer I spend a lot of time now "working the wax in", try rather than simply wiping on and wiping off, to work the wax into all the voids of the paintwork, setting up a better base with layer two there to ensure fully even coverage and further "working in".



Something still not clear for me here is the density of the wax layer, do multiple coats perhaps change the density of the wax layer but not the thickness, this would start to go some way to explaining the changes in looks some are claiming to see - but then again, are there really differences or simply psychological effects. One thing`s for sure and thats the effect is so small, its hard to differentiate between the two!



More food for thought though on what is a highly interesting thread with claims actually being backed up with hard science, something from which there is nowhere to hide ;):D

[khjr]

KSG is one product that definitely does layer if you do it properly.



I`m definitely interested. Can you share some hints? I read a related post of yours (topic was FK1000P) where you indicated that a very light touch is necessary, along with proper loading of product on the hand pad. Given that Klasse is applied very sparingly, the loading is basically non-existant, so is it simply a matter of light touch? The best results I`ve had thus far with Klasse were from alternating layers of SG and Sonus Glanz, but I`m looking for better.

[Passrat]

Wow, so many great responses so soon. Thanks guys!



As far as the IPA goes, I can say that I tested a spot with 50/50 IPA/water and the Klass coats wouldn`t come off. Then I went at it with straight alcohol (91%) and it took some pretty good rubbing to get down to bare paint. Maybe the wipe on wipe off method doesn`t remove previous layers and there really were a dozen coats on there! It`s only on the car for a few seconds before it`s dry. I only did so many coats because it was so easy and fun! I also did the plastic bumper covers, headlights, side glass, rear glass.... :D





Accumulator: Yeah I know, I go back and forth on the idea almost daily. Especially after I saw that not even an alcohol rain could dent the mighty KSG! :heelclick



And I just happen to have an unused Sonus fine clay kit already.

[Accumulator]

RaskyR1- Heh heh, I almost wish somebody would "prove" (scare-quotes intentional ;) ) that KSG doesn`t layer so I could just call BS :chuckle:



And I can`t help but wonder how representative the silcon wafer test really is :think: It` simply very different from waxing a large painted panel on an automobile. That`s not to slam it, or say we can`t extrapolate, but I do still wonder.



The density issue *is* interesting, and I bet machine applications via pseudo-spitshine introduce a whole lotta variables along those lines. So IMO just "reapplying LSP to see if it layers" isn`t necessarily a simple, cut-and-dried matter.



And even if something doesn`t really *layer*, multiple applications might still make for some sort of difference that somebody might appreciate.



Eh...if people are trying to layer, or just trying to keep things well-LSPed, IMO, generally speaking more waxing is better than less waxing. While I :rolleyes: about folks who wax *very* frequently, I sometimes think a lot of brainpower is being wasted on some of these topics ;) Let people do what they want/enjoy...as the guy said, "it`s just car wax".



khjr- Unlike the FK1000P, I`ve never seen anything to suggest that the KSG is vulnerable to a like-removes-like sort of solvent action once it`s cured. I guess I try to apply subsequent applications somewhat gently, but with KSG it`s not a big a deal to me.



I do try to distribute the KSG evenly on the applicator, by holding it over the mouth of the bottle and shaking it, which deposits a tiny drop of KSG. Then I move the applicator and shake it, once, again. I repeat until I have numerous tiny dots of KSG on the applicator and then I fold it in half and rub it together to further distribute it. Overkill? Perhaps :nixweiss



Passrat- Since most people find they need to repolish/reLSP come spring anyhow, I just can`t see redoing something now. The first time you have a nasty winter mess on the vehicle I bet it`ll seem like a waste.

[imported_paintxpert]

I dont know ...I must be an old timer. If I repolish I do just that, re-create the surface using a high speed polisher, you know. I dont use alcahol or any other stripper. I REJUVENATE the surface using FRICTION and HEAT. Not removing clear coat but working with it to make it optically perfect. Folks are making a BIGGER deal than it is. Thats why I always say either you can power polish or you cant or should learn. It will make your life as a detailer easier and less painful. If you cant power polish you are not a detailer in my book. I dont mean this to be offensive in any way. I am always available for tips on power polishing. I only use FOUR major products to REJUVENATE any cars surface. If you LEARN, you will soon have the KEYS TO THE KINGDOM looking back saying ...why did I NOT learn this sooner? GOOD LUCK!!!!

[Dsoto87]

What the hell are you talking about?



Are you senile? How did you answer the OPs question?



By the way, I can see youre a real "xpert" since you use a high speed polisher yet remove no clear coat. Youre not an xpert, you must be a God.

[Kean]

....ignore him. I do (added him to my ignore list the first few days he began to post his egotistical drivel).