Collinite 845 Questions

[Danspeed1]

I had a couple of questions that seem to have gone un answered. If anyone could help I would appreciate it.



1. Can I layer 845?

2. How long should 845 remain on the paint before it is removed, I want max shine and protection?

3. Would you top it with ZCS or is it un-nessary?



Any help would be appreciated....



DG

[deathlok]

1) yes (but keep in mind that for best results you should let it cure for 24h between layers)

2) as long as you want. (usually just wax the whole car and then start removing)

[wfedwar]

1. Sure.

2. 10 minutes is usually fine. Remember to apply very, very thin.

3. I doubt it would bond to it. Try Z8 instead if you want a topper.

[Accumulator]

Don`t buff it off until it comes off "clean and dry". The "finger swipe test" is good- if it smears, let it set up longer; if it comes off as a light, dry powdery film then it`s ready.



I do sometimes use a semi-W-O-W-O approach on black trim, but only for the first coat.



Only thing I top it with these days is 476S.

[imported_Denzil]

Just like Accumulator mentioned, use the "finger swipe test".

[Danspeed1]

Thanks for the reply guys,



Followed your instructions and the car came out great... I will post pictures in the click and brag tomorrow...



DG

[Todd@RUPES]

While the great debate remains on how much wax can be layered, keep this in mind...



In natural state, carnauba wax is harder than concrete. It has to be "cut" with some pretty aggressive stuff to soften it so that it can be applied.



So when you put on a coat, you get a micro-thin amount of wax that settles on the paint. The rest is wiped away.



When you apply a second coat on top of the wax, you are introducing fresh product (with solvents) over the super thin layer that remains. As you wipe the product on, you re-agitate the previous layer with the solvents, which should reintroduce the previous wax into the new solution. The solvents outgas again, and you wipe off the second coat, with the same, thin coat remaining on the paint.



So factualy speaking, carnuaba wax (because of the reintroduction of the necessary solvents needed to soften the paint) cannot be layered. Many claim to see benefits from multiple coats, but this is likely from ensuring even coverage over the paint.

[wfedwar]

While the great debate remains on how much wax can be layered, keep this in mind...



In natural state, carnauba wax is harder than concrete. It has to be "cut" with some pretty aggressive stuff to soften it so that it can be applied.



So when you put on a coat, you get a micro-thin amount of wax that settles on the paint. The rest is wiped away.



When you apply a second coat on top of the wax, you are introducing fresh product (with solvents) over the super thin layer that remains. As you wipe the product on, you re-agitate the previous layer with the solvents, which should reintroduce the previous wax into the new solution. The solvents outgas again, and you wipe off the second coat, with the same, thin coat remaining on the paint.



So factualy speaking, carnuaba wax (because of the reintroduction of the necessary solvents needed to soften the paint) cannot be layered. Many claim to see benefits from multiple coats, but this is likely from ensuring even coverage over the paint.



Maybe, maybe not. Does the exist wax layer have time to redissolve before the new solvents evaporate? Without actually measuring the thickness of the wax layer to see if it grows, you wouldn`t know. There`s a lot of complexity to this question and I don`t think you can ever know the answer without measuring it.

[MrNorwall]

I say, the more elbow grease in putting coats, it looks better in my mind.

[wannafbody]

I think CS can be layered over 845. Try it and see if you can see any difference if you have the CS.

[SuperBee364]

While the great debate remains on how much wax can be layered, keep this in mind...



In natural state, carnauba wax is harder than concrete. It has to be "cut" with some pretty aggressive stuff to soften it so that it can be applied.



So when you put on a coat, you get a micro-thin amount of wax that settles on the paint. The rest is wiped away.



When you apply a second coat on top of the wax, you are introducing fresh product (with solvents) over the super thin layer that remains. As you wipe the product on, you re-agitate the previous layer with the solvents, which should reintroduce the previous wax into the new solution. The solvents outgas again, and you wipe off the second coat, with the same, thin coat remaining on the paint.



So factualy speaking, carnuaba wax (because of the reintroduction of the necessary solvents needed to soften the paint) cannot be layered. Many claim to see benefits from multiple coats, but this is likely from ensuring even coverage over the paint.



Yeah, Todd, that sounds exactly right...You would think that the oils/solvents/etc. in the wax being applied would immediately solve the insanely thin coating from the previous coat. Which, of course, would then simply be redeposited with the new wax being applied. I guess the new layer would be more "concentrated", since you are redesolving old wax in with the new, the total wax content would be greater, but whether that would make a difference in the actual thickness of the coat... :nixweiss



Well, having said all that, I do *see* a difference in an accumulation of three coats of Vintage. Makes me :nixweiss again. Maybe just an accumulation of more concentrated wax? Or I`m seeing stuff that isn`t there... boy, I hope I don`t have to go through *that* again. ;)

[Way2SSlow]

Or I`m seeing stuff that isn`t there... boy, I hope I don`t have to go through *that* again. ;)



Sometimes I wonder the same thing about myself. You WANT to see it so bad, that you can convince yourself to. I`m not a layer guy, unless I`m using KSG. When I add another coat, it`s just to have a fresh coat of protection. I`d imagine a fresh coat of Vintage just looks THAT good. I dont have the coin to find out myself, but who knows, maybe layering actually works. I dont think we`ll ever get a SCIENTIFICALLY unbiased answer. Seems all the answers are coming from people that sell the stuff and I wont take it as gospel. :D

[Accumulator]

OK...[ :nervous: shudder :nervous: ]...I`ll post a little something on the layering thing again (regulars here have seen this all before). NOT gonna get into some big :argue though. If somebody thinks I`m lying, or deluded, or otherwise not credible...well, that`s their opinion but it won`t change what I`ve experienced, which was blatantly obvious (and yeah, I applied rigorously strict testing methods, equalized timeframes and so on).



...[Deleted long-winded rant on my experiences, which I`ve posted before and oh, who cares. YMMV anyhow]...



(Dis)Prove it to yourself instead of taking anybody`s word for it- Simple version: Do the appropriate prep and apply a coat of [whatever] to the hood. Wait a day (or whatever`s appropriate for your product) and don`t drive/wash/do anything to the panel. Apply another coat of it to half the hood. Wait some more. Repeat for a while. Finally, add one more coat to the whole hood. This leaves two applications on one side, and more (preferably many more) on the other, with the final one being applied at the same time for both sides. Observe what happens and base your opinions/future applications on what *you* experience.



Oh, FWIW, IME on KSG...the magic number for a noticeable difference seems to be four layers. Six lasts a lot longer, but two/three aren`t all that different IME from just one. Heh heh, I sure wouldn`t bother layering KSG on the minivan for days on end if there weren`t a good payoff ;) Nice to just wash it for months on end once the job is finally finished.

[Todd@RUPES]

Yeah, Todd, that sounds exactly right...You would think that the oils/solvents/etc. in the wax being applied would immediately solve the insanely thin coating from the previous coat. Which, of course, would then simply be redeposited with the new wax being applied. I guess the new layer would be more "concentrated", since you are redesolving old wax in with the new, the total wax content would be greater, but whether that would make a difference in the actual thickness of the coat... :nixweiss



Well, having said all that, I do *see* a difference in an accumulation of three coats of Vintage. Makes me :nixweiss again. Maybe just an accumulation of more concentrated wax? Or I`m seeing stuff that isn`t there... boy, I hope I don`t have to go through *that* again. ;)



I don`t put much theory into the thought that the new layer would be more concentrated for several reasons...



If this was the case, the manufacturer would use less solvent so it was more concentrated to begin with.



A P21s wax rep told me in their testing of the new product, they over 95 percent of the product is wiped away (compared to what is applied). The amount of wax that stays behind is trace at best.



I always put on two coats of whatever I use (more if I can if it is a sealant that cross links and can be layered) to ensure even coverage.



If three coats of Vintage makes a difference to your eyes, then that is all matters. Are you building a thicker film? Probably not. Are you ensuring a more even coverage and distribution of the oils/solvents/wax... more likely.



Is it going to last longer? I have no idea, but that is what makes detailing fun. It is all personal taste and observation.



What makes forums like these great is that we can "disagree" and discuss it in a civil manner that hopefully leads other people to make more informed decisions.



So you probably are not building a thicker film, but that doesn`t mean you aren`t improving the appearance. And more importantly, if it makes you feel better and you see the difference, then that is all that matters.

[Way2SSlow]

If somebody thinks I`m lying, or deluded, or otherwise not credible...well, that`s their opinion but it won`t change what I`ve experienced, which was blatantly obvious (and yeah, I applied rigorously strict testing methods, equalized timeframes and so on).





I seriously doubt anyone on this board thinks *you* (of all people) lack credibility. :D



If it`s worked for you, maybe I`ll give it a try. I tried spit shining and machine applying a paste wax because of your advice. Both seemed to work well for me, other than the fact I dont like putting QD in the fridge.



As far as layering goes....Who knows? Some people swear up and down that it works, and some swear up and down that it doesnt. I remember reading all kinds of threads by member Foxtrapper (I think was his SN) with all kinds of application tests of KSG. Pretty cool read, but I havent seen him post here in a while.



Bee, you get free refills, so I say layer that bad blue SOB every day! :D



Danspeed,



Good to see another fellow SS`r on this board. I say give layering a shot, it`s not going to hurt anything. If it works for you post here, and if it doesnt work for you....well, post your results here in that case too! :D