Persistent spotting problem (long post)

[SamXp]

I`m having some trouble with a client`s car with persistent spotting.



About a month ago, the car was brought in with heavy swirling and mild water etching. The following process was used:



ONR Wash

Sonus Medium Clay

Twisted Wool pad @ 2,000rpm with SIP

White foam pad @1500rpm with SystemOne

IPA wipedown

Duragloss 105 TPP



This was some very hard clear coat. It took several agressive passes with the Wool/SIP combo to take down the water etching that was visible on the hood/roof/trunk. Swirls were eliminated and the customer picked up the car, extremely pleased with the result.



After some dust accumulated, the customer washed the car and noticed small water spots all over the car. He was scheduled to go to a car show in a few days, so he brought the car to a local detailer (we are ~170miles apart) and had him polish the car (with a PC7424 and a AutoMagic 10Q sealant). The spots were reduced, but not eliminated, and after the car was rained on during the show, and he washed the car, the spots returned stronger than ever.



The local detailer managed to also reintroduce swirls, so the client scheduled another detail with me. This time, the process was:



ONR Wash

Sonus Medium Clay

Twisted wool pad @2,000rpm with Optimum Compound

White foam pad @1500 rpm with Optimum Polish

IPA wipedown

Poorboys EX-P

Poorboy`s Natty`s Blue paste wax (8 hrs later)



Even the clay seemed to reduce the appearance of the spots significantly. After the EXP and the Natty`s the next morning, the car absolutely gleamed. It took first place at a car show that afternoon. During the drive home, it rained. The customer washed the car and wiped it down.

The spots have reappeared.



I have only a handful of theories, and all of them seem just a little bit far fetched. The customer is concerned that the car simply cannot be in the rain. But with both EXP and the Carnuba to protect it, I cannot imagine what would cause spotting.



Discuss! Please!

[Cleaning Fool]

Hmm. Im no expert by any means but are you sure the guy is being straight forward on how he is washing and more importantly drying the car. As simple as it sounds, if you don`t dry the car correctly AND THOROUGHLY, your going to have spots. Spots simply reappearing seems odd.

[SamXp]

The guy has openly described everything he has done in careful detail, and I definitely believe he is being truthful. If it is an error on his part, then I believe it is unintentional and he simply wants to determine what he is doing wrong and prevent this from happening.



Note that these are some extremely stubborn spots. Not the kind of thing you`d normally find after some hard water sits on a car and dries off. And they were on the glass as well! They would not come out with just a foam pad and light polish (like System One, 106ff, Optimum Polish). It took the wool pad and either SIP or Optimum Polish to completely reduce the spots. Very persistent!

[danponjican]

I know some Zaino users have experienced similar issues with water spotting. Any Zaino users want to chime in? Also, what does everyone normally use to take water spotting off when the car has good LSP protection on it?

[wannafbody]

Could it be industrial fallout of some type? Is the car kept inside or outside.

[SamXp]

It`s a show car that is garaged most of the time, driven occasionally, and hardly ever in the rain. The problem always seems to crop up after it rains, and then when he washes it! I`m thinking that fallout could definitely do something like this, though.

To add to the confusion - he`s had this car for two years and never experienced this problem until he washed it the first time after the first detail. I`m sure this is just some horrible coincidence, but it certainly feels as if the burden of proof has fallen on me.

[danponjican]

I believe he does keep it indoors (garaged) but in this case, it was polished on Friday PM, sealed that night (EX-P), and a coat of Natty`s Blue the next day (today). On the way home it rained on it so the owner pulled into a self service car wash and rinsed with the rinse water and then followed up with the spot free rinse. When he toweled it off, he noticed the spots.

[BlueLibby04]

rain in general shouldnt spot that bad unless something is in the rain. Ive never really had rain spot(aside from you common acid rain etching) unless the paint was covered in pollen or something along those lines. Even then they just wash right off.



Maybe he is washing it in direct sunlight or the water he uses in really hard, maybe its both? Ive always had water spotting problems at my house since we live on a hill(sun shines strong). Even though we have trees, Ive started using filtered water(see filter threads) which has cleared the problem right up. I do, however, still have a water spotting problem on my windows but I believe thats the type of glass used on my Jeep. :(

[whitejavaS500]

My definite guess would be his water being hard.

[SamXp]

I`ve encountered hard, calcerous water spots many times, and they`ve never been this stubborn. I can usually clean them up with QD, and if that doesn`t work, then a clay bar makes short work of them. These wouldn`t even come out with a mild abrasive polish! It took an aggressive compound with wool to get them gone.



Throwing out this possiblity - could there be some deep type of etching that has caused porosity in the clear coat that is uncovered each time it is polished? Doesn`t seem likely - since the car polishes out flawlessly, to the eye. Even if the polish, sealant or wax would be filling in these supposed pores, they couldn`t possibly completely hide the appearance of the spots. Because this car finished out amazing. Taking 1st place at this show was no small feat. There were some flawless cars there.



I`m leaning towards some off-the-wall possibility such as:

- There is a chemical spill near his house. When it rains, he runs through it, and sprays his car with some harsh contaminants that can bond even to a freshly polished car coated with EXP/Natty`s.

- The self-service car wash he uses has some faulty filtration in their water recovery systems that is leaving some nasty water. He did use their "spot free" cycle, which should be RO/DI water, but we could be dealing with 5 year old membranes that have long outlasted their usefulness.



I`m stretching here. I need some answers. Help me out, Autopians!

[imported_Denzil]

What exactly is he washing his car with? Perhaps the soap that he`s using is stripping all the protection off and the water being used is ridiculously hard water. I don`t know... are the water spots appearing in the exact same spots?

[SamXp]

I`m not sure what he regularly uses, but he said that he only used the high pressure "Rinse" cycle and the low pressure RO/DO "Spot Free Rinse" cycle to rinse the rainwater off the car. Then he towel dried it with a MF cloth and Duragloss 951 Aquawax.



As for the spots reappearing in the same size and location - I`m trying to get him to take pictures, but they are coming out blurry. He says they look to be about the same.

[SamXp]

I suggested he try a chemical polish/AIO type product. Duragloss 101 is the only locally available product that came to mind, but Carquest is not open on a Sunday so he picked up some Meguiars Deep Crystal System Paint Cleaner and reported that the spots were 90% gone, with only ghosts of their former selves.

This seems to support the idea that these spots were introduced somehow, after the detail, versus the idea that the detail did not fully remove them and only covered them in some way. Neither scenario seems likely, but either is plausible, I suppose.

[imported_Denzil]

Well, I hope the both of you somehow figure something out. I`ve never really experienced something like this myself.

[SamXp]

One other thing worth noting is the glass.



- The first detail, there were not spots on the glass.

- The second detail, the spots were consistent throughout the body and all glass (windshield, sunroof, windows, rear window).

- The spots were removed Friday night.

- After the wash, the spots have returned on the body only. Not on the glass.



This makes me lean towards the idea that the spots are actually returning, and not simply being reintroduced.



Can anyone refer me to an auto/body repair forum? I had high hopes for my fellow Autopians but this might be a question for the paint guys. If anyone has any ideas, though, please share!