I Hate Shipping Internationally!

[BlackElantraGT]

As a preface, I sell occasionally on eBay and normally do business domestically so I don`t have to go to the post office and fill out customs forms. Like many sellers, I`m just selling new and used items I have sitting around the house that I have no use for. eBay is just like an ongoing garage sale for me.



Recently I sold some expensive Leica lenses and to attract more customers, I decided to offer shipment worldwide since they still seem to be very popular with collectors overseas. The first lens went to Japan and when I shipped it, I purposely left out the PayPal payment receipt and stated the item was a gift. Whether or not Japanese customs will charge the guy extra is another story, but I was able to ship it without much hassle (besides not being able to get tracking # for USPS Priority International).



Today I packaged and wrapped another one to be shipped out to Paris, France. I left out the payment receipt again, but upon taking it to the Post Office, they would not let me ship it without an invoice. Even though this was sold through eBay, I told the lady this was a used gift sent from one friend to another. She showed me their policy on her computer screen and it appears that any shipment over $300 requires an invoice of some kind, no matter if it is commercial or just a gift. I asked if the policies varies from country to country and she mentioned that many European countries require this. Since I was able to ship to Japan without an invoice, it makes me believe these rules are in place by the other country`s customs.



Anyway, sorry for the long post but I`m just annoyed with the fact that French customs is making this harder than it should be. I would expect this from a small, poor country that tries to make money any way they can, but not from a country like France. Some of you can argue that I don`t have a reason to be upset because I`m trying to get the other person out of paying customs fee, which is true, but what if this was just an item sent from one friend to another? We`re talking about an over 30 year old piece of camera equipment. They surely can`t expect anyone to have a receipt or an invoice for a used product from that long ago?

[BlueZero]

Bummer. I`ve shipped wax a few times and the post office always freaks out when I answer yes to the liquid question. I can`t imagine all the paper work for international.



I collect some old camera gear also. Not the nice Leica stuff, just cheaper things I find at garage sales. I`ve got a few fun things that I still use.

[BlackElantraGT]

For me the form filling isn`t all that bad, it`s just having to go into the post office and wait in the long lines, only to be told you can`t ship it because you don`t have a receipt or an invoice for an old, used item.



I thought these transactions would go a lot smoother to be honest, especially since PayPal was the only form of payment I accepted. Usually it`s a pretty easy process when you use PayPal because you can print out your USPS or UPS shipping labels from your computer and all you have to do is drop off your package or have them pick it up. For whatever reason, I wasn`t able to add everything I wanted using their online shipping service, so I had to go into the PO to ship these items.



If I knew more about photography I probably would have kept these items, but I know nothing about rangefinder cameras (m4, m5) so I know someone else would get better use out of them. I still have 2 camera bodies that I need to sell, but this time I think I`m only going to sell it within the U.S. only.



These last 2 foreign customers have been more trouble than I wanted. The first guy complained that I should have shipped it via Express, but the auction clearly stated and quoted the shipping price for Priority Int`l. I even gave him the option of doing Express if he wanted to pay extra, but he didn`t. He apologized after I told him (and once he sees on his package) how much the actual shipping charges cost me and what he actually paid for shipping.



The 2nd lady was a complete noob with no 0 feedback when she won. Unfortunately, eBay can automatically prevent someone with negative feedback from bidding on your auction, but zero feedback is fine for them. She had trouble with PayPal for some reason and it took about 3 weeks to finally straighten it out. Not exactly her fault, but it would have been nice if I could have gotten this all done right away.



To make it even worse, for some reason I did not have PayPal seller protection on any of these transactions.

[Setec Astronomy]

Don`t take this the wrong way, and I mean no disrespect (and this is really going to sound funny on a site where a significant number of members detail cars for unreported income), but you are really complaining that you got caught evading taxes or customs duties. These governments are obviously hip to the fact that the eBay gray market has skirted the old dealer business channels which are legitimate businesses (which have to file tax returns/customs reports and have auditable records), and are therefore avoiding paying the taxes/duties that were traditionally collected.



This argument is a little like the members who get caught with illegal tint/mods and complain about it, and other members respond that if their car was legal, they would have nothing to worry about.



While I`m on the subject, is garage sale/eBay income subject to income/sales tax? I`m thinking no on the income tax, but yes on the sales tax.



PS They weren`t asking for the original invoice on that 30-yo lens, they were asking you for an "invoice" to go with it which would declare the value, whether that was from a sale or otherwise.

[BlackElantraGT]

Don`t take this the wrong way, and I mean no disrespect (and this is really going to sound funny on a site where a significant number of members detail cars for unreported income), but you are really complaining that you got caught evading taxes or customs duties. These governments are obviously hip to the fact that the eBay gray market has skirted the old dealer business channels which are legitimate businesses (which have to file tax returns/customs reports and have auditable records), and are therefore avoiding paying the taxes/duties that were traditionally collected.



This argument is a little like the members who get caught with illegal tint/mods and complain about it, and other members respond that if their car was legal, they would have nothing to worry about.



While I`m on the subject, is garage sale/eBay income subject to income/sales tax? I`m thinking no on the income tax, but yes on the sales tax.



PS They weren`t asking for the original invoice on that 30-yo lens, they were asking you for an "invoice" to go with it which would declare the value, whether that was from a sale or otherwise.



I see where you`re coming from which was why I originally stated that some of you will say I have no right to be upset about this. It doesn`t affect me monetarily, but the recipient will be the one who gets shafted. I`ve shipped some items internationally before and in general, most people want you to "devalue" the item when you state the value to customs. So technically it`s the customer that`s trying to evade their country`s taxes/duties, but if I were on their end I`d want the same thing too. No one likes paying taxes.



As far as the invoice goes for an old item like what I was trying to ship, I don`t get what the difference would be from me stating on the customs form the value of the item, vs. making a printed "invoice" that just declared the value. On the actual form I put the actual cost of the item ($900) so I can fully insure it, so with or without an invoice the person would have paid full tax/duties on the item. I was more annoyed about having to have some "invoice" just to ship.



So let`s say hypothetically the item I am shipping already belongs to the person, but they moved to France and they asked me to mail their item for me. If this was an old item, what exactly do they want on this "invoice"? Or lets say this person was moving to France and had to ship out some of their belongings. Do they have to pay import tax/duties on items they already paid for and own?



I don`t sell as a legitimate business so I don`t know all the laws regarding these things. I`m guessing that if you make more than a certain amount per year, Uncle Sam probably wants you to declare it as income. Personally, I`ve never recorded it as income nor do I charge sales tax because everything I sell I`ve already paid for, including taxes with my own money.



There are so many tax loop holes that people take advantage everyday. For example, you`re supposed to pay taxes on out-of-state purchases, but how many people really report that? If the gov`t wanted to enforce that more, why not just make the businesses collect tax even on out of state purchases? I`ve always felt that tax loop holes have been in place for you to take advantage of, if you know about it. Otherwise, if you`re dumb or you can`t afford a good accountant Uncle Sam will just rip you a new one.

[Setec Astronomy]

Yeah, I know, there`s too many loopholes, etc. I don`t know about other states, but as you allude to, whenever you sell a car here, you`re supposed to write the sale amount on the title when you sign it over. Invariably, people ask you to leave that blank so they can put down less than they actually paid, because when they go to title the car they get charged sales tax on the amount written.



I personally try not to get myself into those situations because it give me too much agita worrying about whether I`m going to get caught or something. I think if people felt that everyone was paying their fair share or that people didn`t have better accountants than they do, they would be less likely to try to dodge taxes, but maybe that is just wishful thinking.



I wasn`t trying to judge you or your "customers", I just sometimes wonder about all the unreported income (not from eBay stuff, but just people working under the table, unreported tips, etc.), the small stores that you go into that don`t ring all the purchases into the register (to avoid records for sales tax, etc.) etc., and if you counted all that up whether it would make any differences to debts, budgets, or tax rates. Just one of those things I wonder about like how much longer my LSP will last if I use a certain QD or spray wax after washing...

[BlackElantraGT]

Don`t worry man, I didn`t take offense to anything you said. I`ve always agreed on your point of view on many things.



For me, I don`t avoid taxes because I feel other people aren`t paying their fair share. I`ve always viewed it as me vs. the government. I don`t feel like the gov`t looks out for my best interest and I already pay a good amount to them, so if I can sneak a little here and a little there, I`ll take advantage of it. Gangs and mobs operate much the same way IMO. They take a cut of your money and you get nothing out of it besides not being punished by them. They don`t really protect you, but rather they protect their best interest if someone were to try to come into their territory.



About unreported tips and earnings, I have never met a single person who works in those type of jobs that have actually reported their actual earnings. I`m sure the government could crack down on that if they really wanted to, but at the same time they know that if they did, no one would work in those fields because it wouldn`t pay enough. On another note, some of these people make a pretty decent living considering all they`re doing is waitressing or delivering pizzas. But they`ll never get rich or have a very high standard of living by working these jobs, so I`ve never been jealous of them in any way.



What I really don`t get is when some Americans complain about illegal immigrants stealing our jobs and not paying taxes, and I think a lot of these views come from Middle America where they`re not too familiar with illegal immigrants. I`m not saying I want to legalize them, but the truth of the matter is these people drive our economy, especially here in California. They work jobs that most Americans aren`t willing to do and many of them pay taxes just like we do. I used to run and review credit all day and these people would go through so much trouble to establish credit just so they can have a somewhat normal, yet illegal life here in the U.S. They go through all that trouble to get into this country only to make a small enough wage to send back to their family. It`s sad when you think about it.



It`s funny how the whole immigration issue became big right about the same time a majority of Americans didn`t support Bush`s war in Iraq. I always thought the Bush administration wanted the focus on anything else BUT the war. IMO, even if the majority of Americans wanted illegal immigrants out, our government wouldn`t take much action to drive these people out of our country because they know we need these people for our economy to run. The Chinese built the Great Wall of China to protect their country from invaders. Do you really mean to tell me our U.S. government can`t figure out a way to protect our borders with all the resources we have thousands of years later in 2007?



So I guess to sum this all up, I think there are bigger issues to worry about than whether or not Jose paid taxes on his crappy, low paying job.





The government is just as responsible for "allowing" some "rules" to be broken.



*** Anyway, I tried to go through UPS but their rates were rediculous for overseas shipping. They wanted close to $140 and higher. I ended up going to another post office and the guy told me the same thing about it requiring an invoice, but he was a lot nicer than the lady I dealt with yesterday. In the end, I just said the item was worth $299. The post office clerk didn`t care. I didn`t have to provide 2 invoices. And the recipient will be glad they`ll only have to pay tax/duties. Everybody wins, unless of course the item is damaged in shipment. Knock on wood! :)

[Setec Astronomy]

I always find it amazing that most illegals (well, the illegals that have regular jobs where they are on the payroll) of course pay taxes, including social security. I don`t know if John Q. Public thinks that illegal workers are the nannies and maids and day workers who get paid in cash, or the people with fake ID that have "real" jobs and pay taxes, and I don`t know what the percentage breakdown is. Like with most issues, the dynamic is extremely complicated, even if the politicians and media like to paint everything as black and white.



Glad you got your shipping issues resolved! :)

[BlackElantraGT]

All I know is if John Q Public likes Chinese food, they better not deport all the illegal immigrants because around my area, many of the cooks in Chinese restaurants are Mexicans! I`ve always thought that was funny.

[PhaRO]

Only this that bugs me about shipping internationally is Paypal and their seller protection policy. You are basically sol if there is a dispute on an international shipment. We`ve (wife and I) had more problems domestically with fraud though than internationally so still ship quite a bit internationally. We always fill out customs form with the amount the item sold for. We get asked often to mark it as gift or lower the value but won`t do it. My wife always handles the customs forms thankfully.

[BlackElantraGT]

PhaRO, I know what you mean about being SOL because I noticed how I had no seller protection and their addresses weren`t confirmed either. If any of these people decide to dispute, I don`t know what exactly is going to happen but I have been moving my money out of my PayPal account right away should they for some reason decide to reverse those charges.



I only have a feedback of 189 at the moment, so I hardly do much business on eBay compared to a lot of sellers, but thankfully I have only had to deal with fraud once, and eBay automatically contacted and resolved that issue without me having to do anything (I just had to relist again). And out of all those transactions of mine, only 2 have been deadbeat bidders (1 guy I was nice to because he supposedly had health issues). What sucks is my only negative feedback was from a banned deadbeat bidder. His reason for giving me negative was because I was being mean to him for giving him a negative feedback. It sucks that people can ruin your perfect feedback history with BS, retaliatory feedbacks.



Mind if I ask what you tell them if they ask you to list it as a gift and devalue the item? If it works for you, I might have to use your answer too to make it not as complicated.