Very Impressed with HD Products

[Danspeed1]

As I am sure most of the people in this section are, however I am impressed because they are a forum sponsor. Till recently my go to was always M105/205. I have been buying bottles of different products for years; i really just enjoy trying new things. So when a new bottle of something comes out I buy it. Kind of a waste of money but I find it enjoyable so whatever. So I have Menzerna, and 4Star, and Optimum, and Wolfgang, and so on... all stacked up in my box at home. Most of them have only been used once; then I go back to M105. So I saw all the hype on here and figured I would give it a try but was honestly skeptical because I felt like forum was pushing this product because they were selling it. So maybe it really wouldn`t be good and its all propaganda. I was wrong. This is the best system I have used to date, I am so impressed with it. What impressed me most was how short my work time was and how quickly even my super hard GM clear was leveled by this stuff and brought almost to LSP ready. Then I knocked down what little was left with HD polish on White and the paint was 99% perfect.

So if you want to keep reading, to give you a little background I have am 08 CTS that is used for business. We do 30-40K miles per year. Car has never been detailed other than washes. It hasn`t had any paint work at all however it has horrible factory orange peel that has always bothered me. I plan on keeping it another 2 years (150k total) so I am not too concerned about paint longevity so this was the perfect Guinea Pig for what I did next: Washed with Dawn, Clayed, and then buffed with M105 on a Carpro Velvet Pad. Unfortunately the paint was so HARD the velvet did absolutely nothing. So I decided instead to wet sand with 1500/2000/2500 looking at leveling 60-70% of the orange peel. My paint reads in low spots 4.9 mils and in high spots 6.1 so I checked all the panels and really only sanded the ones with 5.0 or more. After sanding I knocked down the sanding marks with HD CUT on Velvet. Now we were in business... the results were literally an almost LSP ready finish. I was amazed! Followed that up with HD Polish on white and below is the result....

P.S. for the naysayers that advise not to wet sand factory clear... I agree if you have a car you plan to keep for 300K and 10 years or a classic or something of that nature, but on average I removed between .1-.2 mils from my panel.

[Stokdgs]

Nice finish ! Very glossy !

Which Rotary did you use ?

Just to be clear, what measuring tool did you use ?

Unless it`s the most expensive DeFelsko meter, all others are measuring total thickness which of course includes, primer, sealer, whatever else is under there besides the paint..

How come you measure in Mils instead of Microns ?

Microns is what I always use because 1 Mil = 25.4 microns and I want to know if I am even removing even part of a micron to be really safe..

So, by my calculations, you had total thickness measurements of 124.46 microns (4.9 Mils) to 154.94 microns( 6.1 Mils) total thickness, not just the clear coat or the paint..

And you removed 2.54 microns (.1 Mil) to 5.08 microns (.2 Mil) of the clearcoat/paint off the top...

No factory has ever to my knowledge said exactly how much paint/clearcoat they apply to their vehicles..

That is why some of us are naysayers - unless we know it`s a repaint and the Painter said he applied several extra coats of paint/clear and this is all reliable information..
Dan F

[Danspeed1]

I have become comfortable with my Makita 9227c, been using it for years. Its funny you should ask that question because although I think its an awesome tool and I love it, its kind of the "dealership standard," and I see all these super professional looking Flex and Rupes polishers and I can`t help but wonder if I am leaving something on the table. I use a Snap on paint thickness gauge, and you are correct it only measures total paint thickness. I am more comfortable working in mils because I am able to better quantify that in my head, just from years of reading paint the same way. My mindset behind what I removed from the paint was that the areas at are 4.9 mils from the factory were likely areas that weren`t heavily covered by the machines, none less they are still glossy and I would imagine still had enough clear on them that a dealership or individual should be able to polish the vehicle quite a few times before striking paint. If it was so thin that at 4.8 mils your striking paint there would probably be a TSB out on the issue (which there is not) and I would be extra cautious in those areas. I would like to imagine although I could be wrong that even the lightest areas had at least 1 mil of thickness before the paint. So in areas where there is 6.0 mils of clear, I felt I was safe with readings in the range of 5.8-5.9 mils when i was all set and done. Even in areas 5.0, I had no issues getting those down to 4.8 mils. I never struck paint during the project. I am not going to advocate anyone wet sanding there brand new CTS or any car for that matter as I do agree that on a car you plan to keep long term, the maintenance and upkeep would be too great and there could be concerns with future paint correct as the years went on and the car acquired swirls, and scratches, and sat in the sun, and so on, but on a car like this where the paint was already beat, and the car had 100k miles and its moving along in the next 2 years... I felt as though it was a good experiment and the results are just outrageous. This really does look better than new. I will definitely enjoy the finish for the next couple of years. Additionally, the vehicle has been top coated with Optimum Gloss Coat 2.0... to add the layer of protection that was removed and will be top coated with Pinnacle next week to see how much better I can bring up the gloss.

DG

[Dellinger]

Dan,

From the get-go, great job on the Cadillac. Looks phenomenal!

And don`t get me wrong; I am a big fan of HD products, however, HD Cut is NOT one of them. But that doesn`t really matter because it worked well for you!

The rotary is a great, no, actually, the BEST tool for leveling paint or sanding marks and really good at refining with a foam pad... however there are very, very few individuals that can finish out with zero trails. Comfortable to say, I am not one of them. Going forward you could cut with the Makita and refine with any D/A... it doesn`t have to be a Flex or Rupes, and get exceptional results.

If you reallly like HD prodcuts, the 3D Rubbing and Finishing liquids should pique your interest.


Great job!
-Gabe

[Stokdgs]

DG -

I can`t believe it - You and I are probably the only people on this Forum that use the Makita 9227C all the time !
This is great !!!
I learned on a Rotary as kid, and have never really found anything for me that will replace it..

Sounds like you may work/worked at a Dealership ? And yes, every automotive/airplane Factory, paint shop, etc., dealership, etc., has at least 1 Makita out there..

I personally love the workout you get from the 10lbs held at all kinds of angles with lots of pressure at times, and not having any vibration to deal with..
And it will never be too big as long as I put a spacer on it, any size down to 1" pads, and still get into places, or fix just that 1 little defect..

In fact I never take the spacer off; I adjusted my technique to allow for it, and it always needs to be on there anyway.. Just change to any smaller backing plate when needed, and Im good..

I totally get what you were looking to achieve and from what I see, you have so exceeded expectations.. Yes, it certainly looks way better than new!!

Glad you applied Gloss Coat 2.0.. I like Optimum coatings a lot and have had just great results with all of them, including the very first Opti-Guard version which is still on my Grand Cherokee for over 4 years now...
I love that I have not had to do 1 thing over all those years to it except an occasional wash with CarPro Reset, when it was invented a few years back... This soap really helps coatings get cleaner better than anything else I have ever tried... So glad they made it..

Looks like your CTS is going to stay beautiful for as long as you want it to - especially since you put something over the paintwork to protect the paintwork...
See you around the campus !
Dan F

[WaxAddict]

Microns is what I always use because 1 Mil = 25.4 microns and I want to know if I am even removing even part of a micron to be really safe..

Decimal points. The meters I`ve used display Mils to two decimal places. That 2nd decimal place is beyond the precision of the meter. Point is, Mils has as much useful precision as Microns. Use what you`re comfortable with.

[Danspeed1]

DG -

I can`t believe it - You and I are probably the only people on this Forum that use the Makita 9227C all the time !
This is great !!!
I learned on a Rotary as kid, and have never really found anything for me that will replace it..

Sounds like you may work/worked at a Dealership ? And yes, every automotive/airplane Factory, paint shop, etc., dealership, etc., has at least 1 Makita out there..

I personally love the workout your get from the 10lbs held at all kinds of angles with lots of pressure at times, and not having any vibration to deal with..
And it will never be too big as long as I put a spacer on it, any size down to 1" pads, and still get into places, or fix just that 1 little defect..

In fact I never take the spacer off; I adjusted my technique to allow for it, and it always needs to be on there anyway.. Just change to any smaller backing plate when needed, and Im good..

I totally get what you were looking to achieve and from what I see, you have so exceeded expectations.. Yes, it certainly looks way better than new!!

Glad you applied Gloss Coat 2.0.. I like Optimum coatings a lot and have had just great results with all of them, including the very first Opti-Guard version which is still on my Grand Cherokee for over 4 years now...
I love that I have not had to do 1 thing over all those years to it except an occasional wash with CarPro Reset, when it was invented a few years back... This soap really helps coatings get cleaner better than anything else I have ever tried... So glad they made it..

Looks like your CTS is going to stay beautiful for as long as you want it to - especially since you put something over the paintwork to protect the paintwork...
See you around the campus !
Dan F

Dan,

Yup, the only thing I own is my Makita Rotary and I use it 100% of the time. I really think its an amazing tool; although I don`t post often I do read regularly and I see threads on here all the time where people recommend a DA because the Rotary is too difficult. There is a learning curve but once you do a car or two with it, it becomes incredibly easy to use. The reason I posted was because this last combination was so quick to get such an amazing result. After finishing with HD polish on white, there were NO buffer trails, holograms, or micro marring, it really was one of the best finishes Ive gotten so far and I`ve been doing this for about 15 years (non-professionally). Sure I`ve gotten the same results with wool, orange, white, and then black on a finishing polish (jeweling) but the fact that I was able to knock down 2500 grit sanding scratches on rock hard GM clear with 1 pass and then get the surface almost perfect on the second is just mind blowing for me. This should have taken me 40-50 hours to do, this is 24 hours worth of work including the engine compartment and interior which I went nuts on as well.

I too learned on a rotary as a kid. You got me! I did work for a dealership, until recently actually... looking to change paths as the dealership world isn`t what it used to be. You generally wont see me advertise that though as unfortunately I am not trying to hurt any feelings, but on here but Dealership Detailers get grouped as a bunch of hacks... some of them deserve the title as Ive seen some pretty bad work over the years while others are really amazing but time constraints and lack of the proper tools don`t allow for them to get the job done right. I hope to fall in the later category. In my teen years I detailed at a couple of dealers, then moved to service and I am finishing my career in the sales department. They always used a rotary, I never had any other options. In my teens I purchased my first rotary which was a great tool to learn on! I recommend it to anyone starting out if its still even available. I purchased a Sears single speed rotary polisher for like $60. It had just enough power to get swirls out and not enough to burn the paint. What it did do is allowed me to get the technique down pat. Working at dealers I was able to step up to the Makita and burn the paint here and there on some used cars LOL. And after a short time I became very proficient working with this tool. Now its second nature... I find it incredibly easy to use. I see myself trying a DA in the future just for ease of use,... but ultimately I can get a near 99% correction on good paint with the rotary so there is no rush.

I agree with you on the 10 lb machine. I see these new polishers listed as light weight but never having the opportunity to try one I can`t seem to understand what the benefits are. I just put the rotary down on the surface and let the weight of the machine do all the work. It makes it effortless. And I love using the spot buffing pads on the Makita, awesome results and you can correct small areas and deep scratches without leveling the rest of the panel. That allows you to get super aggressive and take more risk without messing up the whole thing.

Optimum Gloss Coat 2.0 is my go to now. I have it on my Corvette as well. I have yet to top it with any wax as on the plastic panels the surface is so slick the water just runs off but I find it is beading on the CTS much more so I think this will be the car i try topping with a wax. I`ve had the Gloss Coat on the Corvette for the last 2 years and although I do cover it, it still sheds water like the day I installed it. I need to start using the other 20 waxes and sealants I have laying around though. Its hard when you find a really good product to stop using it in favor of something your not as fond of.

But don`t think I still wont purchase 3D AAT, can`t wait to get my hands on it

Thank you for the praise, I appreciate everyone`s positive comments!

Dan

[Danspeed1]

Decimal points. The meters I`ve used display Mils to two decimal places. That 2nd decimal place is beyond the precision of the meter. Point is, Mils has as much useful precision as Microns. Use what you`re comfortable with.

Simply Stated.. Exactly

[Stokdgs]

DG,
Glad that you have a well-rounded experience level with the tool..
What has to be overcome more than perhaps anything, is the fear the tool that will damage paintwork..
Once one understands that all you have to do is Lift the machine off that spot, off that edge, etc., then the opportunities to hurt anything are way less..

I was in the Paint Shop side of it at an early age and through my 20`s, and as you probably already know, most shops had the Painter or his Apprentice prepare everything for painting, paint it, dry and cure it enough to get to compound it, and get it ready to go back out the door..

I was blessed to already have great technique on the Rotary as you have, and then worked with great Painters through my Apprenticeship, and no one that I ever knew left swirls, etc., in the paint...

Yes, you had to be fast, because there is only so much money in the estimate, Insurance payout, etc., but you could still turn out beautiful work even with what would be considered the oldest of old school products...

It was and IS always about being Innovative and Adaptive to what works now for this vehicle and this Panel, in front of my face..
It will never be - follow these exact steps - X number of passes in this direction, X number of passes in that direction.. 3 spots of this product + 1 spot of this.., etc..

Great feedback on HD products..
I have never tried them; have heard what seems like you really like them, or you don`t because they don`t play well, etc..
It is obvious that you worked very well with HD products here and the results speak volumes...

I may need to try some of them out sometime; thanks for your feedback regarding them..

Ref. - your working your way through a Dealership -
Wow, looks like again your have well rounded experience there..
Perhaps now its time to go for the GM post ?

My recent experiences at Dealerships just looking at vehicles for perhaps a purchase - wow - no one looks up from their playtoy games long enough to notice you have just walked past a few hundred vehicles outside, pausing to look at many of them..

And then - does anyone speak English anymore there? Sometimes I have closed my eyes and imagined standing in that long line at Disneyland with my then little girls, and not hearing anyone speaking the English language..

And does anyone really know what models they are selling and studied enough to carry on a conversation about the different models?

I have finally decided to do all my looking and research on the Internet, then deal with a whole other group - The Internet Team - and see what they have to say..
Dan F

[Danspeed1]

My recent experiences at Dealerships just looking at vehicles for perhaps a purchase - wow - no one looks up from their playtoy games long enough to notice you have just walked past a few hundred vehicles outside, pausing to look at many of them..

And then - does anyone speak English anymore there? Sometimes I have closed my eyes and imagined standing in that long line at Disneyland with my then little girls, and not hearing anyone speaking the English language..

And does anyone really know what models they are selling and studied enough to carry on a conversation about the different models?

I have finally decided to do all my looking and research on the Internet, then deal with a whole other group - The Internet Team - and see what they have to say..
Dan F

Well for the time being I think i`m just about done with dealerships unless some outstanding offer comes along. Its really a burn out job and I`ve been doing it way to long. Sales has really opened my eyes up to trying something new. Back in my service days I would hear stories such as what you stated above, about sales people blowing off customers and being more interested in playing on the internet then answering questions. As I watched the sales people sit there in their beautiful suits and ties and waved to them in the evening as they left in their BMW`s I said to myself from the 90*F shop, drenched in sweat smelling of cheap wax or motor oil, "I have to make my way up front, that`s the good life, that`s where the moneys at." How wrong I was. Sure there are senior guys making a decent living and you still have your career sales people that love to sell for the shear thrill of it, but if you don`t fall into either one of those categories and your just a guy trying to make a fair living a dealership has become a difficult to survive. As I sat at my desk in my overpriced suit from 9am-9pm Monday through Saturday, sometimes even till as late as midnight I thought to myself how life was just passing me by. Sales quotas that were set to be unobtainable led to you working even on your days off, only to not meet them anyway at the end of the month which means you weren`t getting paid, customers coming in to look at vehicle only to test drive 5-6 cars with you over the course of a week and then buy it from Jimmy up the road because Jimmy`s dealership was able to save them $5 a month because they run an smaller operation and have less overhead, sales meetings daily with managers telling you how lucky you are to have a job, and a sink or swim mentality when you start somewhere new or get moved within a large organization to a different manufacturer which is why no one is trained and most your sales people can`t tell you anything about the product. We all start out wanting to be the top guy, wanting to learn the most about the products, but as time goes on you just loose your taste for it, I`m especially guilty of that; which is when you need to know to call it quits... This is why you are experiencing sales people who prejudge you and aren`t approaching you to help you out on the lot, as well as guys who are completely unknowledgeable. Its sad and there is not excuse for it but its reality unfortunately. The whole dealership process needs to be revamped, its miserable for the customers as well as the sales people. Sorry for the rant but it just hits home right now.

So in the meanwhile I do what I really enjoy... Detailing keep myself busy trying to hone my skills and wait for the next opportunity .

DG

[Stokdgs]

Well for the time being I think i`m just about done with dealerships unless some outstanding offer comes along. Its really a burn out job and I`ve been doing it way to long. Sales has really opened my eyes up to trying something new. Back in my service days I would hear stories such as what you stated above, about sales people blowing off customers and being more interested in playing on the internet then answering questions. As I watched the sales people sit there in their beautiful suits and ties and waved to them in the evening as they left in their BMW`s I said to myself from the 90*F shop, drenched in sweat smelling of cheap wax or motor oil, "I have to make my way up front, that`s the good life, that`s where the moneys at." How wrong I was. Sure there are senior guys making a decent living and you still have your career sales people that love to sell for the shear thrill of it, but if you don`t fall into either one of those categories and your just a guy trying to make a fair living a dealership has become a difficult to survive. As I sat at my desk in my overpriced suit from 9am-9pm Monday through Saturday, sometimes even till as late as midnight I thought to myself how life was just passing me by. Sales quotas that were set to be unobtainable led to you working even on your days off, only to not meet them anyway at the end of the month which means you weren`t getting paid, customers coming in to look at vehicle only to test drive 5-6 cars with you over the course of a week and then buy it from Jimmy up the road because Jimmy`s dealership was able to save them $5 a month because they run an smaller operation and have less overhead, sales meetings daily with managers telling you how lucky you are to have a job, and a sink or swim mentality when you start somewhere new or get moved within a large organization to a different manufacturer which is why no one is trained and most your sales people can`t tell you anything about the product. We all start out wanting to be the top guy, wanting to learn the most about the products, but as time goes on you just loose your taste for it, I`m especially guilty of that; which is when you need to know to call it quits... This is why you are experiencing sales people who prejudge you and aren`t approaching you to help you out on the lot, as well as guys who are completely unknowledgeable. Its sad and there is not excuse for it but its reality unfortunately. The whole dealership process needs to be revamped, its miserable for the customers as well as the sales people. Sorry for the rant but it just hits home right now.

So in the meanwhile I do what I really enjoy... Detailing keep myself busy trying to hone my skills and wait for the next opportunity .

DG

DG-
Thanks so much for your candor..This has been an eye opener for me..
I am sure it is much harder to do and deal with than you are telling us here..
Hope and pray that the right choices and doors open up better opportunities..

For sure, Detailing is an incredible craft and those of us who love it, who love all things mechanical with 2 or 4 wheels, who love taking an awful mess and carefully rearranging everything in order again, while putting the best possible look to every square inch of it, are totally removed from life`s realities for those brief 20+ hours.. And usually we come out of that stint a little tired but very happy with the results we accomplished with our brains and bare hands...

When I am asked what this Craft gives back to me, I will always say - A Great Sense of Accomplishment..

Glad you have worked hard to learn and earn mad skills, and your personal work ethic is at the highest level too..

We have all come here from a myriad of jobs and careers and are all at ready to do our part..
Dan F

[JustJesus]

Danspeed - Thanks for that. I have a very close friend work in car sales for years. He complained, but I never got a true insight as to why. Now I know why!