first try with a rotary

[imported_paradigm]

just got my hitachi sp18va this week...fired it up today and gave it a first try.



victim was my winter car's trunk...92 accord.



before pics:



lots of marring and scratches remaining after doing all i could with my PC...

during:



i found i was really good at adding holograms! :wall



OC w/ orange pad

OHC w/ orange pad

OP w/ white pad

 

[imported_paradigm]

OP w/ black pad:

after final pass w/ black pad:

forgot to mention all pads are LC.



process:



spread product at <=600...then went to ~1000-1100 for initial practice passes. the fastest i tried was 1500-1600...that was when i noticed a lot of the deeper marring starting to come out.



problems experienced:



--pad "jitter" ...i think it was due to not using enough product

--holograms ...moving buffer too fast (i assume)

--pad jumping around ...not keeping it level enough



it was MUCH easier to keep the softer pads (white and black) steady than the orange as well. i can see why this will take a lot of practice!



edges and tight spaces are either near impossible or takes a LOT of practice...i couldn't really even try to go near the top of the trunk (near the window)...the minor curve up on the panel made the buffer start to become unstable and skip around.

 

[imported_Dave KG]

Looking good in the end shots there, mate! I remember my first time out with the rotary too, its so satisfying to use the tool, espeically after being used to the vibration of the PC, a rotary is just so nice and smooth... My PC is actually now redundant now I have the rotary...



The pad jitter (or rotary "hop") can come from actually using to much product on a pad as well... If you notice your pads starting to clog up, this is a prime candidate for causing the rotary to hop. I always keep a sturdy bristle brush by me when using the rotary and after easch set I spur that pad with it to keep the pad clean.



Holograms can come from a variety of things, one of the prime causes is not properly breaking down the polish. The diminishing abrasives in polishes needto be fully broken down to get the crystal sharp finishes you associate with rotary polishers, if they dont fully break down you will leave buffer tails behind.. Be careful of splatter in this respect, as you can pick up abrasives that haven't been worked for as long as the majoorty of the polish and these can leave you with small tails as well. Moving the machine too fast across the panel will also results in holograms.



Also, after you have worked the polish at higher speeds (1500 - 1600rpm) and th residue is going clear, I like to step the speed down to 600 - 900rpm for final passes to refine the finish... This helps remove any faint hologramming that may be there from the higher speeds and I find gives me a lovely crystal sharp finish which I always crave after on all my details. :up

 

[David Fermani]

lots of marring and scratches remaining after doing all i could with my PC...

Contrary to the popular belief among alot of die hard PC users(not me), the same results could have been achieved with a PC. How, I don't know??



Nice final job BTW. Practice, Practice, Practice...

 

[wannafbody]

always finish with a soft pad and a finishing polish . Some claim that pads with a center hole reduce squiggles and hologramming. Some prefer the waffle texture of 3m pads.

 

[imported_paradigm]

Contrary to the popular belief among alot of die hard PC users(not me), the same results could have been achieved with a PC. How, I don't know??

i do believe you that it is possible for the same results...just a matter of how long it will take. here is the thread i posted after hitting the same car with a PC:

http://autopia.org/forum/click-brag...-about-one-my-winter-ride.html?highlight=1992



i tried everything i had and most of the deeper stuff (but not able to feel with a fingernail) would not budge. OHC, 83, 4* MCC, 4" pads, etc. i suppose it would just take hours and hours per panel to beat it down.



great feedback everyone...i really appreciate it. i'm looking forward to more practice...but will be sticking to horizontal panels for a while. i don't want to try verticals until i have a better feel for it on the easy stuff.



for the tighter spots, do you guys use different backplates/pads on your rotary...switch to a PC...or go by hand?

 

[David Fermani]

i do believe you that it is possible for the same results...just a matter of how long it will take. here is the thread i posted after hitting the same car with a PC:

http://autopia.org/forum/click-brag...-about-one-my-winter-ride.html?highlight=1992



i tried everything i had and most of the deeper stuff (but not able to feel with a fingernail) would not budge. OHC, 83, 4* MCC, 4" pads, etc. i suppose it would just take hours and hours per panel to beat it down.

Please don't take offense, but you're kinda talking out of both side of your mouth. From the pictures you took, the finish looks very deep and shiny after PCing (highly polished). But, as you stated, it's the best you could get it with a PC. Then, with a rotary, it clearly looks better(deeper scratches gone). I'm sure (if possible) it would take a long time to produce like kind results, but did you ever try a small area with a PC to prove it? The pictures you took with a flash/under lights really accentuate your product, I'd like to see it with my own 2 eyes if true similar results could be achieved. :spit:



:goodjob regardless.

 

[imported_paradigm]

no offense taken at all! sorry...i think we're just misunderstanding each other. i was saying i tried everything i had with the PC and couldn't get the deep stuff out...but if i had spent many hours in one section then i possibly could get it out (again...didn't try that long and wouldn't ever want to spend that much time trying)...but i didn't invest that much time into it. that's why i'm happy to be learning the rotary due to much greater efficiency and potential for amazing results.

 

[MorBid]

Looks good my friend, looks like your getting some "skills" for sure.

 

[David Fermani]

no offense taken at all! sorry...i think we're just misunderstanding each other. i was saying i tried everything i had with the PC and couldn't get the deep stuff out...but if i had spent many hours in one section then i possibly could get it out (again...didn't try that long and wouldn't ever want to spend that much time trying)...but i didn't invest that much time into it. that's why i'm happy to be learning the rotary due to much greater efficiency and potential for amazing results.

So the saga continues of =equal= potential outcomes? Can it be done? :think:

 

[Anthony O.]

Buffer swirls are one thing....micro-scratches. They can be introduced with a flat pad, a waffle pad, a finishing pad, while holding the pad flat or at an angle. It's all about working down to the finest pad/product combo. Finer the pad, fewer the swirls.



If your pad is skipping then you need to center yourself over your machine. I bet you don't get as much skip when the rotary is close to your upper body? Also buff with a slightly open face on your pad, meaning you do not buff with a flat pad but rather lift one side up just slightly. This also helps reduce pad skip.



Happy Rotary...ing,

Anthony

 

[Deanski]

Rotary machines are not as user friendly as a PC in handling. Remember, you have a rather large machine with a rotating mass on one end as opposed to another that will jiggle. It takes more control and upper arm and body strength to maintain a rotary from dancing.



You should also have a spray bottle of distilled water next to you. If the polish is getting too dry too soon, one to two sprays will resolve that.



There are several videos on rotary work as well.



Be very careful around any corners, or whenever you suspect the paint coverage is thin as opposed to flat areas where it's thicker. Use a soft touch in those areas and do not let the pad dwell long.



Best advise: Always use a test panel (junk yard hood, fender etc) and try it with different pads and polishes prior to using it on your own car or a customers car. Get the feel of it first. Learn how to control it and this way you'll get the best results!



Regards,

Deanski

 

[David Fermani]

Rotary machines are not as user friendly as a PC in handling. Remember, you have a rather large machine with a rotating mass on one end as opposed to another that will jiggle.

I'll take an upper body workout over getting vibrated into numbness any day. :scared:

 

[Deanski]

I'll take an upper body workout over getting vibrated into numbness any day. :scared:

You got that right brother!:har: Numb is not the word! More like being attacked by 100's of jelly fish.



Never understood the PC evolution into car detailing as you have to crank that thing until it goes to 11! Then try to hold it for an hour...at 11... Geeez, my hand and arms were killing me. Tossed it for the rotary long ago since that's what I learned first.



Regards,

Deanski

 

[imported_Dave KG]

If I may make a cpuple of comments regarding the PC and the rotary polisher. For me, the rotary is the ultimate tool, but its advantage for me as far as defect removl goes lies in the speed with which it will remove defects. A PC7424, with enough time and patience, will cut away enough paint to remove defects, but on cars with hard finishes it will take a very long time and as a result for me the rotary polisher is the better option...



However, just to show that thorough defect correction can be achieved by PC, here is an Audi A4 that has spent its life in car washes that I detailed using a PC. It had severe swirls and marring, and I used Power Gloss by 4" pad and the slow cut method twice, then Intensive Polish to remove the micromarring...



Bonnet 50/50 shot:





Unpolished:





Polished:





Complete:





Rear wing before:





Rear wing after:





Audi paint in the UK has a well deserved reputation, along with all VAG cars, for being very hard making defect removal a long and slow preocess by PC - this car took three days to complete! But the defects were removed. Yes, the rotary polisher would make this correction faster, but the PC was still capable of removing enough paint to remove the defects, and it always would be given enough time and patience... Indeed, you can strike through with a PC just like you can strike through with a rotary, it would just take a few weeks! lol



Where the rotary is better in my eyes is in the terms of absolute clarity in the finish... A rotary polisher, for me, is the ultimate tool as it can finish downto a crystal clairty that the PC just cant quite manage owing to the randome orbit free rotation nature of the tool, which makes it difficult to completely break down the abrasives in a polish as well as you can with a rotary polisher... With time and care, the clarity I can achieve from the rotary polisher in a finish is better than I can achieve by PC.

 

[David Fermani]

However, just to show that thorough defect correction can be achieved by PC, here is an Audi A4 that has spent its life in car washes that I detailed using a PC. It had severe swirls and marring

Rear wing after:





this car took three days to complete! But the defects were removed. Yes, the rotary polisher would make this correction faster, but the PC was still capable of removing enough paint to remove the defects, and it always would be given enough time and patience

Is it me or does this picture of the 1/4 still look like it has spiderwebbing? It's shiny and deep looking(polished), but there still looks like there are slight defects. Can you see them? That's what I think a PC is good for - polishing.

 

[Accumulator]

On the "can you do it without a rotary" Q: Noting that I can never get hard clear nearly as nice as I want it without a rotary..that's for *the whole vehicle* and IMO it's a matter of my not wanting to put in the time and effort. There are spots that you simply cannot fit a machine pad into (e.g. behind Audi door handles) and these must be done by hand. It takes an incredibly long time, but you *can* correct these areas; I've done it. Now whether spending an hour or more on an area that's maybe 1" x 2" is worth doing or not is another matter, but it *can* be done- hey, it's simply mechanical abrasion where the product and media (compound/polish on a cloth) are harder than the material being abraded (paint); the speed and heat of a rotary are not, strictly speaking *necessary*, just desirable. Heh heh, the difficulty and time involved are why I told the dealer that if they ever caused such scratches again they'd lose me as a customer.



Dave KG- That's better than *I* ever got an Audi without using a rotary, three days with 4" pads huh? Sounds like a pretty unpleasant job of work.



paradigm- For the tight spots that you'd like to do by rotary, you can try using pads such as the LC VC ones, use the beveled areas and/or the edge. But you gotta be very, very cautious about stuff like this and it always makes me plenty nervous. But then I'm not the Rotary-meister that some people here are (not by a long shot). OR just do 'em by hand...seems like there are always *some* spots (as per above) that I have to do the hard way.

 

[MorBid]

Dave KG- That's better than *I* ever got an Audi without using a rotary, three days with 4" pads huh? Sounds like a pretty unpleasant job of work.

He beat me to it. I've all but gave up using my PC on my A4 except for LSP's and scrubbing the carpet. I'm sure it will delivered the desired results but I don't have all day, let alone 3.



Good Work BTW,



MOrBiD

 

[imported_Dave KG]

Is it me or does this picture of the 1/4 still look like it has spiderwebbing? It's shiny and deep looking(polished), but there still looks like there are slight defects. Can you see them? That's what I think a PC is good for - polishing.

That area was not acutally polished in this pic, other than the overlap that I always do on all areas to esnure I dont miss bits.



I'm not saying that I would ever tackle a car like that again by PC (unless the paint was very thin and I was using a filling polish as I didn't want to risk abrasives), I use my rotary for all mahcine polishing applications these days including finish. Indeed, my PC is near redundant - but it will cut the paint, and given enough time, would remove defects.

 

[David Fermani]

That area was not acutally polished in this pic, other than the overlap that I always do on all areas to esnure I dont miss bits.

Why did you post before and after pictures then? It clearly looks polished and each picture looks different.