Lexus IS250 detail by Immaculate Reflections

[vettefan67]

I`m looking into purchasing Blackfire but am hoping to limit my balooning detailing expenses. I`m wondering about the performance of Blackfire "All Finish Paint Protection" (AFPP? BFPP? We need an abbrev!) without the use of their polish.



I know David B. used PPCL underneath BFPP and had good results, but has anyone else tested this? For example, doing part of a panel with BFPolish and then BFPP then another part of the same panel with PPCL and then BFPP and comparing results?



The only other issues for me are safety and durability, safety coming first. Have any chemical engineers gotten a hold of the MSDS for this product and deemed it safe for long term use?



Thanks for the help!

Justin

[DETAILKING]

I would check with CMA or David B on this. I don`t have an MSDS, but I am sure it is a safe product to use. I mean, you are not drinking it right? What would you look for on the MSDS anyhow? What are your concerns?

[spartacus_33]

I used Klasse AIO, followed by Blackfire sealant. Seemed to work fine. I also have PPCL, and PS21 paint cleanser so I couldn`t justify buying the BF polish. Does anyone think there is a compatibility issue?

[vettefan67]

Hey jermar, thanks for the response! Wow, I hadn`t thought of using AIO. . . But I do know David B. used PPCL before applying BFPP to the car he tried BF on and he reported good results. Notice he did <em class=`bbc`>not[/i] use Blackfire`s proprietary "polish".

From the Blackfire web page:

<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

Gloss Enhancing Polish is a non-abrasive, cleaner/ polish. Use Gloss Enhancing Polish to remove old wax, clean the top paint surface, reduce swirls and deepen the paint’s gloss. It “wets� the surface to create the illusion of the paint being under water. Gloss Enhancing polish hides minor swirls and scratches without removing any paint or clear coat. It "rounds-over" the top edge of swirls which robs sunlight of a sharp edge to cause a reflection.</blockquote>

Obviously some "prettying up" language has been used here. I interpret this to mean that BF polish does the following:
<ul class=`bbc`>[*]Clean paint surface chemically[*]Lightly abrade / fill VERY minor swirl marks[*]"Wet the surface"[/list]
Yes, it does claim to deepen the paint`s gloss, but abrasion will do this by rounding over the top edges of scratches. The only thing I haven`t been able to change is the claim to wet the surface, perhaps a BF user can comment on this because I cannot.

<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

Gloss Enhancing polish offers no long term protection. Follow with BLACKFIRE All Finish Paint Protection to protect the finish with a deep, liquid shine.</blockquote>
Well, that`s interesting. Sounds like it is not much like AIO and perhaps AIO is better? Please note I am purely speculating as I have not tried the product in question. I`m going by the advertising information and what I`ve heard from users of the product.

Sounds to me like PPCL would be a fine substitute for BF polish.

Responses, flames welcome

Justin

[rmccall6]

The polish helps with the swirls, albiet minor ones but it does help. As for wetting the surface, thats kinda what it does, it helps give the paint a wet look to it. Then the protectant seems to deepen and brighten the shine. Go ahead and use the polosh, is easy to use, not too expensive and gives you great results.

[YoSteve]

DK, correct me on this. If Blackfire contains silicone oil then is it safe to use on exterior plastic? Most likely not on rubber, but what about plastic?



Since PPCL doesn`t redily lay down residue (like AIO does), then it would be sufficient paint prep, rather than using BFGEP , as Davidb did.



One thing is for sure, AIO does protect your car long term as a product all by itself, it is a polish/cleaner/protectant.

It also seems like if you can BFAFPP over AIO then why not over SG. Or use the BF spritz over SG.



Anyone Souveran over BF yet?

[vettefan67]

<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

<em class=`bbc`>Originally posted by YoSteve.Com [/i]
<strong class=`bbc`>DK, correct me on this. If Blackfire contains silicone oil then is it safe to use on exterior plastic? Most likely not on rubber, but what about plastic?

Since PPCL doesn`t redily lay down residue (like AIO does), then it would be sufficient paint prep, rather than using BFGEP , as Davidb did.

One thing is for sure, AIO does protect your car long term as a product all by itself, it is a polish/cleaner/protectant.
It also seems like if you can BFAFPP over AIO then why not over SG. Or use the BF spritz over SG.

Anyone Souveran over BF yet?
[/b]</blockquote>
Sadly it seems the only ones who really want to conduct experiments with BF don`t have any. You and I and others who want to do some good testing of the product are reluctant to fork out the money for it first...I think I may just buy BFPP and try it over PPCL only, over AIO and over AIO/SG and then figure out whether I should purchase the polish. The only way we`re going to learn about this product is by testing it. So let`s do it!

EDIT: removed second paragraph. Useless speculation, thanks to DK for pointing it out.

[YoSteve]

I think that the people responsible for the inital testing of Klasse aren`t around as much. Some of them either left or don`t post as much because of how the "second generation" of users are.



Many don`t spend as much time and money as some of the initial pioneers have in the past. I am sorta curious as to the lack of experimentation with the stuff. With Klasse the experience is just impressive right off the bat.



There are two types of reviews, of people who have tried Z or K and say BF is similar, and the others who`s first product is BF. Recall that the latters` products consisted of over-the-counter products so the inital "wow" factor may be bigger. I want to hear from both parties along with any variations of application too.

[DETAILKING]

I am a little surprised at this thread. Some people here have not even tried blackfire yet, and now they are writing their own directions and methods for use?



I think it is great that the documentation on BLACKFIRE is as detailed as it is. Definately, a HUGE improvement over KLASSE.



I, personally would try out blackfire according to the directions first for a fair evaluation, and then start experimenting. I guess the question is about the polish. Is it necessary or just another product to buy? CAn it be replaced with something like PPCL or is it really compatible with the system and make a difference.



I personally, wouldn`t mind if Terry, or David B would step in for a further explanation of how it works. THey should appreciate our desire for knowledge more than the average consumer that relies strictly on marketing. After all the questions are addressed, then I would still try it according to directions before experimenting.



I would be interested in someone taking an unprepped car with very good paint, and applying the polish and sealant on one panel and just the sealant on another, and evalute the look and feel of both, and also the gloss retention after washing a few times........

[vettefan67]

Hey DETAILKING, no disrespect intended, but you kind of misinterpreted me. I am in no way offering directions of how to apply Blackfire, merely sharing my plans for the product. I even went so far as to say
<blockquote class=`ipsBlockquote` >

Please note I am purely speculating as I have not tried the product in question. I`m going by the advertising information and what I`ve heard from users of the product.</blockquote>I`m just speculating here, and trying to get some feedback from others on what they think. This is a new product, and perhaps I feel a little suspicious of the way it`s been marketed and want to see if I am correct.

If I`m wrong and my methods do not work as well as I hoped, I will purchase the polish and try it with that. We have already heard it works fine with the polish, I want to know if it does without. I`m also on a tight budget as I`ve spent too much on detailing stuff already and have an order growing by the moment.

Best Regards,
puterbum

[rmccall6]

I definately don`t just recomend he polish because its cheap, i think it does exately what its advertised to do. It clearly improves the shine like i said before and if you read my review. It also is very easy to apply and not expensive so before just asuming, i would try it out. Does Blackfire contain silicon oil? I know it contains silicon based polymer but i dont remember reading anything about silicon oils. DK, completely agree with you, nice to have lots of info on the products, and i know you are a die hard zaino user but you should try it out. The look isnt necisarily better than zaino just diffferent, not as bright, but deeper. Both, as said by DavidB, are some of the best you can buy.

[DETAILKING]

It just annoys me sometimes when someone does not use a product like it was intended and wonders why they get substandard results. That usually ends up with some negative posts for no reason........



YO STEVE--> I wouldn`t use any product that contained silcone oil on my car (most carnubas do). It is a body shops nightmare. The Oil tends to seek its own level and penetrate into chips, open pores in the paint, and cracks, and can be difficult to remove. This could really mess up a paint job if you ever had to get a panel repainted. It is very difficult to get all the oil off. Think of rinsing that oil spot away in the driveway....you scrub and scrub, and it always comes back.........



BLACKFIRE is said to be based on a silicon polymer. Silicon is no silicone. Silicon is an element that is crystalline in form and used widely in the chip fabrication industry. It is expensive to obtain it in it`s pure form. I wonder if it is mistaken for silicone?! There are tons of silicone polymers out there, much more common, and lots of products based on that technology. I never heard of a silicon polymer....but then again......there are thousands of them....no one can know them all.

[imported_Adamah]

Brad4rdhay, I thought I read in one of your posts that you said you had never used Zaino before. If thats the case how can you compare how Blackfire looks to Zaino?

[vettefan67]

Thank you DETAILKING. You just went over the "safety" concerns I had based on false rumors about "silicone" being in the product. I appreciate the insight.

[rmccall6]

Like i said and like i also said in my review, i have never used zaino before but have seen countless pics of it. If you gave my pics of cars with zaino vs klasse i could easily tell the differenct. Zaiono is very bright and clear but retains a certain wetness to it, where the reflections look mirror like but just with a wetter edge, while klasse has a bright, harder, silver look but also darkens the paints color slightly (nice for black, not good for some silvers) Blackfire has the wetter shine of zaino but looks softer and more like a carnauube in nature. You are right for calling me out about comparing to something i have never used. I am by no means putting down zaino or imideately comming to the conclusion that blackfire is better, im sayting that i can tell the subtle differences in shine. Sory for the confusion.