Lets talk diesel trucks

[House of Wax]

Yeah the GM trucks seem to be a bit out of my price range. I suspect I can find the 250`s in my budget due to the reputation that the 6.0 carries.

Only other thought is to find a 250 that doesn`t have an extensive history (by checking oasis reports, autocheck, etc....) and starting saving/planning for an EGR delete and bulletproof oil cooler/filter upgrade. Seems like once these are done and regular maintenance is kept up on, they`re pretty good motors

[Oldfordisbetter]

My local diesel mechanic says once he works on the 6.0`s they dont come back. So maybe he got them figured out? Like I said, check around for diesel mechanics in your area, maybe one specializes in the 6.0`s. He would know what year to buy, know what to look for, etc. Or maybe they will steer you away from the 6.0 and more towards the 6.4. ( I dont know why). And like I said earlier, if your buying a truck that old, make sure you check for rust, in fact, I would highly consider getting the truck out of the area.

[RDKC]

Well, after being gone for a while I come back and find this... I can talk diesels all day.

As a side note: I am a fleet diesel mechanic for a freight company and work on mostly Detroit Diesels (60 series and the DD13 mostly), but also Cummins, Volvo, and the few Cat engines left in the fleet. I was also a mechanic in the military which means I worked on the 6.2L, 6.5L, a lot of Caterpillars, Detroits, and occasionally a Mercedes diesel. I did own a early 2004 Duramax, and a 2005 Duramax and currently own a 2005 Duramax and a 1997 Powerstroke. Help my brother all the time on his `07 Duramax too.

I can`t seem to find your price range so, a quick overview of the popular engines out there from the 90`s until now.

Chevy
6.2L/6.5L (1982-2000): Good engines once a few design flaws are fixed (relatively cheap) but you`re never going to see a lot of power.
Duramax LB7 (2001-2004.5): Great engine with one major flaw. This is the Duramax that gave the injectors their stigma. You`ll be putting new injectors in every 100,000-200,000 miles.
Duramax LLY (2004.5-2005): The beginnings of emissions equipment for GM. The LLY introduced the EGR system but also brought the VVT. The VVT allows the computer to more easily command more or less boost. Also creates a lot more of an turbo whistle than the previous fixed vane turbo. Valve covers were also changed to allow easier access to the injectors, but that doesn`t seem to be as much of a concern.
Duramax LLY/LBZ (Late `05-`07 Classic): Strengthened internal components and upgraded other features that most drivers will never notice.
Duramax LMM/LML/LGH/LMK (Late 2007+): My honest opinion, avoid them. If you`re willing to pay for maintenance on emissions, they`re great. I, however, am not.

A significant note about GM. They used a 5 speed Allison through model year 2005. They began using a 6-speed in 2006. If you test drive one and want to make sure it is a 6-speed it`s pretty easy to tell. Take it for a test drive, the 5-speed will be at almost 2,000RPM at highway speeds (65MPH) whereas the 6-speed will hover around 1,500RPM. This makes a 3-4MPG difference in fuel economy. If you`re lucky you can find one with the ZF6 tranmission, but good luck. I had one and lost it. Also of note, the transfer cases on the 4WD units are flawed, but it`s not a major fix if you are mechanically able. (By fix I mean make sure it doesn`t become a problem)

Ford
7.3IDI (1988-1994): The 7.3 IDI was straight from International and is an amazing engine. Some are turbocharged, some are not. None have intercoolers. They will last practically forever but, again, a weaker engine compared to newer diesels.
7.3L Powerstroke (1995-1997): Again, a great engine that will run forever. A rather weak engine for it`s popularity, but still has enough power from the factory. There are a few design flaws and most are acceptable. However, if you choose a OBS 7.3, watch the fuel bowl. They can be resealed relatively cheap but full replacement is pretty pricey. You can upgrade to a full electronic fuel system for anywhere from a few hundred to a couple thousand dollars.
7.3L Powerstroke (1999-2003): Same as before with some great additions. Ford ditched the mechanical fuel system which allows for more power, smoother idle, and quicker starts and also eliminates that pesky fuel bowl. They also began using intercoolers which reduce boost levels but greatly improve performance. Another major improvement is the injector change which allows for greater performance.
6.0 Powerstroke (2003-2007): Contrary to popular belief, a great engine that produces good power and has potential for even more. The injectors on the 6.0 seems to be a hit or miss whether they last but the major flaw is the overheating issue. "Bulletproofing" a 6.0 removes the EGR cooler. The EGR coolers are prone to clogging, once they clog they overheat and causes the coolant to boil off. Without regular checking of your fluid levels, this can lead to the engine overheating.
6.4L Powerstroke (2007-2010): I would avoid the 6.4L. It`s a decent engine but, due to the introduction of emissions, is not acceptable. Ford chose to use a post combustion injection to burn the soot deposits out of the DPF. This can (and has in multiple cases) lead to flooding your crankcase with fuel.
6.7L Powerstroke (2011-Current): Nothing bad to say except, again, emissions.

I won`t comment on the Ford transmissions since I don`t know a whole lot about what they used after 2003. The E4OD before that is an acceptable tranny but it was ultimately designed for a gas engine. It has it`s flaws and doesn`t last forever, but what automatic does? I would also try to avoid the TTB front axles in `97 and earlier 3/4 tons. They`re a good axle, but too much maintenance. Also, old body styles will give you one rough ride. Let`s just leave that at Ford got some of their suspension backwards.


I`ve got to get off to work right now so we`ll have to leave Dodge off for the moment. If anyone found this helpful I will gladly post up my simplified version for Dodge later on today or in the AM. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If I can`t find you the answer I can make an attempt at finding it for you, I know a few people that are great at the Cummins (never owned one because of body style/transmission) and a few others that are 10x better with the others than I am.

EDIT: It was pointed out to me that I forgot to mention something about the 7.3L Power Stroke. I am here to fix that. All 7.3L Powerstrokes (1995-2003) can leave you stranded if the Camshaft Position Sensor (CPS) fails. They really don`t give you a warning that they`re about to fail either, they just do. That means you could go out to start the truck to head to work for the day and have a no-start condition. The good news about them is, they don`t fail frequently and they`re extremely easy to replace. They run around $10.00 and requires one 10MM socket/ratchet or wrench. It`s right on the front of the engine and easy to get to from underneath. You take one bolt out, unplug the sensor, and reverse for the install.

[House of Wax]

Well, after being gone for a while I come back and find this... I can talk diesels all day.

As a side note: I am a fleet diesel mechanic for a freight company and work on mostly Detroit Diesels (60 series and the DD13 mostly), but also Cummins, Volvo, and the few Cat engines left in the fleet. I was also a mechanic in the military which means I worked on the 6.2L, 6.5L, a lot of Caterpillars, Detroits, and occasionally a Mercedes diesel. I did own a early 2004 Duramax, and a 2005 Duramax and currently own a 2005 Duramax and a 1997 Powerstroke. Help my brother all the time on his `07 Duramax too.

I can`t seem to find your price range so, a quick overview of the popular engines out there from the 90`s until now.

Chevy
6.2L/6.5L (1982-2000): Good engines once a few design flaws are fixed (relatively cheap) but you`re never going to see a lot of power.
Duramax LB7 (2001-2004.5): Great engine with one major flaw. This is the Duramax that gave the injectors their stigma. You`ll be putting new injectors in every 100,000-200,000 miles.
Duramax LLY (2004.5-2005): The beginnings of emissions equipment for GM. The LLY introduced the EGR system but also brought the VVT. The VVT allows the computer to more easily command more or less boost. Also creates a lot more of an turbo whistle than the previous fixed vane turbo. Valve covers were also changed to allow easier access to the injectors, but that doesn`t seem to be as much of a concern.
Duramax LLY/LBZ (Late `05-`07 Classic): Strengthened internal components and upgraded other features that most drivers will never notice.
Duramax LMM/LML/LGH/LMK (Late 2007+): My honest opinion, avoid them. If you`re willing to pay for maintenance on emissions, they`re great. I, however, am not.

A significant note about GM. They used a 5 speed Allison through model year 2005. They began using a 6-speed in 2006. If you test drive one and want to make sure it is a 6-speed it`s pretty easy to tell. Take it for a test drive, the 5-speed will be at almost 2,000RPM at highway speeds (65MPH) whereas the 6-speed will hover around 1,500RPM. This makes a 3-4MPG difference in fuel economy. If you`re lucky you can find one with the ZF6 tranmission, but good luck. I had one and lost it. Also of note, the transfer cases on the 4WD units are flawed, but it`s not a major fix if you are mechanically able. (By fix I mean make sure it doesn`t become a problem)

Ford
7.3IDI (1988-1994): The 7.3 IDI was straight from International and is an amazing engine. Some are turbocharged, some are not. None have intercoolers. They will last practically forever but, again, a weaker engine compared to newer diesels.
7.3L Powerstroke (1995-1997): Again, a great engine that will run forever. A rather weak engine for it`s popularity, but still has enough power from the factory. There are a few design flaws and most are acceptable. However, if you choose a OBS 7.3, watch the fuel bowl. They can be resealed relatively cheap but full replacement is pretty pricey. You can upgrade to a full electronic fuel system for anywhere from a few hundred to a couple thousand dollars.
7.3L Powerstroke (1999-2003): Same as before with some great additions. Ford ditched the mechanical fuel system which allows for more power, smoother idle, and quicker starts and also eliminates that pesky fuel bowl. They also began using intercoolers which reduce boost levels but greatly improve performance. Another major improvement is the injector change which allows for greater performance.
6.0 Powerstroke (2003-2007): Contrary to popular belief, a great engine that produces good power and has potential for even more. The injectors on the 6.0 seems to be a hit or miss whether they last but the major flaw is the overheating issue. "Bulletproofing" a 6.0 removes the EGR cooler. The EGR coolers are prone to clogging, once they clog they overheat and causes the coolant to boil off. Without regular checking of your fluid levels, this can lead to the engine overheating.
6.4L Powerstroke (2007-2010): I would avoid the 6.4L. It`s a decent engine but, due to the introduction of emissions, is not acceptable. Ford chose to use a post combustion injection to burn the soot deposits out of the DPF. This can (and has in multiple cases) lead to flooding your crankcase with fuel.
6.7L Powerstroke (2011-Current): Nothing bad to say except, again, emissions.

I won`t comment on the Ford transmissions since I don`t know a whole lot about what they used after 2003. The E4OD before that is an acceptable tranny but it was ultimately designed for a gas engine. It has it`s flaws and doesn`t last forever, but what automatic does? I would also try to avoid the TTB front axles in `97 and earlier 3/4 tons. They`re a good axle, but too much maintenance. Also, old body styles will give you one rough ride. Let`s just leave that at Ford got some of their suspension backwards.


I`ve got to get off to work right now so we`ll have to leave Dodge off for the moment. If anyone found this helpful I will gladly post up my simplified version for Dodge later on today or in the AM. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If I can`t find you the answer I can make an attempt at finding it for you, I know a few people that are great at the Cummins (never owned one because of body style/transmission) and a few others that are 10x better with the others than I am.

Awesome read, thanks for the input. Budget I`m looking at is somewhere around 12-15k.

From what I`ve been reading, part of the appeal with the 03+ Fords despite some engine issues is the transmission is supposedly pretty stout.

[Oldfordisbetter]

Good post RDKC. I have a 97 with the TTB, dont like it, but dont really want to go thru the trouble of putting a straight axle in.

and you say GM has always paired the Duramax with the Allison? I didnt know what trans the early ones had, or when they started with the Allison

[JBM]

I had 3 powerstroke 7.3`s and all of them had cam sensors that left me out in the cold, one in the middle of an intersection with 6000 pounds in the dump body lol. Once replaced they never bothered me again, but it still chaps my ass thinking about those.

[Oldfordisbetter]

I had 3 powerstroke 7.3`s and all of them had cam sensors that left me out in the cold, one in the middle of an intersection with 6000 pounds in the dump body lol. Once replaced they never bothered me again, but it still chaps my ass thinking about those.

I know a fair amount of guys carry a spare in the glove box

[RDKC]

Awesome read, thanks for the input. Budget I`m looking at is somewhere around 12-15k.

From what I`ve been reading, part of the appeal with the 03+ Fords despite some engine issues is the transmission is supposedly pretty stout.

You should be able to find quite a few Ford`s or early 2000`s Dodge`s. If you look to a GM you just have to keep the injectors in mind. They do have minimal emissions equipment and, contrary to popular belief, the 2001 Duramax produced more horsepower and torque than the Power Stroke or the Cummins of the same year.

I`d imagine the Ford transmission is a good one but don`t have any experience past the E4OD/4R100. I`ve never really heard any complaints about it to say the least.

Good post RDKC. I have a 97 with the TTB, dont like it, but dont really want to go thru the trouble of putting a straight axle in.

and you say GM has always paired the Duramax with the Allison? I didnt know what trans the early ones had, or when they started with the Allison

The TTB is a good axle, it`s just a finicky axle. (Babble time) To start with, Ford flipped the spring hangers on the fronts of the old body style. The hanger/shackle would normally be in the rear to allow the axle to move up and rearward. This allows the shackle to absorb some of the motion and allows the axle to travel in a more natural path which improves the ride quality. With the factory set up, the pivot point at the rear, the axle is forced to go forward over an obstacle and forces back into the pivot point and creates a less smooth ride. They make kits to reverse this, but they`re not cheap especially if you can`t do it yourself. The two halves of a TTB pivot in a bushing, if the bushing has excessive wear it creates a handful of problems. It can cause your steering to feel loose, your steering to wander, and obviously a worse ride. It also effects your alignment (if the axle isn`t sitting right in the first place the alignment isn`t going to be good off the paper.) Then there are the springs. The springs on an F-250 with a TTB actually have a higher weight rating than the axles off an F-350 with a solid axle of the same year. Why? The springs are actually what`s holding the axle down. So, if your springs/bushings wear you come into the problem mine has. You can`t get the alignment right and it won`t hold.

Now, off the babbling, yes, GM has always put the Allison behind the Duramax in their trucks. The Duramax powered vans use a different transmission.

I had 3 powerstroke 7.3`s and all of them had cam sensors that left me out in the cold, one in the middle of an intersection with 6000 pounds in the dump body lol. Once replaced they never bothered me again, but it still chaps my ass thinking about those.

Yes, I forgot to mention the CPS. Mine hasn`t went out on me but I had to replace a friend`s for him when his `99 wouldn`t start. It`s a good thing they`re cheap, right?

I know a fair amount of guys carry a spare in the glove box

I do, and almost everyone I know with a 7.3L does.

Now, off to type a new post for Dodge/Ram.

[RDKC]

I can honestly say that I`ve never been a Cummins fanboy, so these might be a little shorter than the others. I`ve also never owned one so I`ve never had as much of an inclination to study up.

Dodge

5.9L 6BT (1989-1998): The 12-valve. Let`s start with the negative for this one. Unless it has already been replaced/upgraded you can pretty much count on replacing the lift pump and having problems with the killer dowel pin (holds the timing gearcase and it likes to come out). However, these engines are pretty cheap and easy to get power out of. You`re still stuck with a mechanical fuel system though and all of the horror story titled "Dodge."
5.9L ISB/ISB CR(1998-2007): The 24-valve. Pretty much the same as above except the dowel pin. You also have to worry about the block cracking, but there`s no way to tell if/when that`s going to happen and the only fix is a new block. These do have a better, and electric, fuel system and various other internal upgrades over the 6BT.

Dodge is currently using a 6.7L Cummins that, from what I`ve heard, is still a great engine. However, I try to avoid DPFs.


The biggest problem with a Dodge diesel is Dodge. The Cummins engine is a beast of an engine with amazing potential. Some people hate the sound (it`s definitely different than the V8`s) and some people laugh that it`s a 5.9L 6-cylinder but they are great engines. However, the automatic transmissions that Dodge chose to accompany the Cummins is atrocious. If you can get a manual (5-speed or 6-speed) transmission behind the Cummins you should be set for a while. You are practically guaranteed to have transmission problems if you choose an automatic though. The Dodge chassis is also less than ideal for most of the years (IMO) but, due to the popularity of the Cummins, there are fixes for practically everything.


Here is a little rant now:

No diesel should roll coal on the street! If you have excessive black smoke coming out of your exhaust, I would like to personally thank your douchebaggery for the current emissions standards for diesels. Thanks to you, our cleaner than gas burning vehicles are now hindered with costly diesel particulate filters, diesel exhaust fluid, and sensors that collect our soot to burn it off later while reducing our MPG`s and performance. You, sir, are the guy that put the curling iron somewhere internal so they have that wonderful sticker that says "For external use only" now. We`ll completely ignore the fact that diesels burn both more efficiently and greener than gasoline engines do, because of you we rushed out this stuff so we end up with engines like the 6.0L and 6.4L. Rant over.

There are also options for a 1/2-ton diesel and will be more in the coming years. Dodge currently has a 3.0L EcoDiesel in their 1/2-tons (sorry, Ram). Chevy is releasing a 2.8L Duramax and Nissan a 5.0L Cummins. Ford has no current plans of putting the 3.2L in their trucks as of now. I know these are well out of your budget, but I think it`s pretty amazing and I`d like to share. I`ve always said the only thing that would get me in another half ton is a diesel, well, now they`re doing it.

[House of Wax]

Great stuff man. Thanks for your input.

[XxBoostinxX]

Here is a little rant now:

No diesel should roll coal on the street! If you have excessive black smoke coming out of your exhaust, I would like to personally thank your douchebaggery for the current emissions standards for diesels. Thanks to you, our cleaner than gas burning vehicles are now hindered with costly diesel particulate filters, diesel exhaust fluid, and sensors that collect our soot to burn it off later while reducing our MPG`s and performance. You, sir, are the guy that put the curling iron somewhere internal so they have that wonderful sticker that says "For external use only" now. We`ll completely ignore the fact that diesels burn both more efficiently and greener than gasoline engines do, because of you we rushed out this stuff so we end up with engines like the 6.0L and 6.4L. Rant over.

I couldn`t agree with you more.

[RDKC]

Hopefully it helps a bit. I know a lot of people are pretty lost when it comes to the diesels. I just wish we had more options, they`re so much more efficient.

One last bit of info that you`ll probably notice if you test drive a couple different ones.

I`ll rate the three that will most likely be in your budget from smoothest/quietest to roughest/loudest (stock and IMO):

1. Duramax. If you want a loud truck don`t look to GM. They sound great but a built Duramax tends to be quieter than a Cummins with an exhaust.
2. 6.0L/7.3L (`99-`03) Power Stroke. I can`t tell much of a difference between noise levels and smoothness between these two. The electronic fuel system really helped smooth out the idle on the 7.3L.
3. 5.9L Cummins. By far the loudest and roughest running of them all. It fits the definition of a diesel shaker.

Another bit of info I forgot about the 7.3L. The `99 and up 7.3L turbo`s are prone to turbo surge. It`s about a $100/fix if you can do it yourself. The factory turbine is pretty poorly designed but can be replaced with a "Wicked Wheel" to cure the problem.

Told you I can go on forever. Lol

[House of Wax]

Please share as much as you care to.

I`m leaning heavily towards an 03-07 F-250. I`ve got a lot of reading/learning/digesting of information to do to decide if I want to take the plunge

[JBM]

Everything with diesels cost more to fix and maintain. My 01 water pump was supposedly 800 to replace. (it was under warranty), oil changes are triple, even more then triple with synthetic.

A gasser would allow you to purchase a few years newer.

[RDKC]

Everything with diesels cost more to fix and maintain. My 01 water pump was supposedly 800 to replace. (it was under warranty), oil changes are triple, even more then triple with synthetic.

A gasser would allow you to purchase a few years newer.

Yes and no. Depending on the year and make a lot of accessories are shared between the gassers and diesels (I.e. the alternator on my `97/is the same one they used on most of their gassers). Body, chassis, suspension, etc. components tend to be shared across weight class and are not dependent on engine displacement or fuel type. The engine and the internals do tend to cost more than your average Gasser but that tends to be negated by the longevity of those components vs their gas equivalents. Don`t get me wrong, I`m not saying gas engines are built like crap, its just a different machine.

Diesel engine tend to have thicker components to handle both the higher compression ratios and increased torque (would you run stock pistons,rods, and crank in a 350 SBC with 500 lb.-ft. Of torque?). A diesel engine also revs a lot lower, normally redlining below 4,000 RPM. You`re looking at a redline of 7-8,000 on most gas engines (we`re not talking big blocks here). The higher average RPM obviously creates more wear on components. So, yes, they cost more but they tend to be replaced less often. (Bear in mind this is in my opinion based off my experiences, other experience may vary.)

Now, as far as maintenance, it costs a little bit more. I wouldn`t say triple in all cases though. Speaking of the two I know by heart, my 7.3L takes 16 quarts (I run a larger filter, factory capacity is 14) of diesel rated 15w-40, my Duramax takes 10 qts. Yes, oil for a diesel costs a little more but if you catch sales its not too bad. Filters for both run around $10. All in all, my last oil change on my Dmax cost me about $50 doing the work myself, that`s the same price you`d pay at a shop for a 6-cylinder unless you catch a promo. Glow plugs vs. Spark plugs is almost a moot point anymore with current technology since spark plugs can easily last 100-150k as long as the engine doesn`t experience problems that cause them to prematurely fail. However, I do love not having to worry about plugs, wires, distributors, rotors, coils, or whatever other ignition system its equipped with. My Power stroke needs glow plugs but still starts when it`s cold as long as I plug her in and the Dmax needs 7 of 8 and I know it`ll start down to 20* without being plugged in.

I`ll try to post some links for Ford/6.0L info for you once I get home, House.