troublesome paint/clear coat

[dubber]

is there a thread where autopians specifically comment on clear coat hardness of specific vehicles?

if not, maybe we should document on the troubesome clearcoats that need some extra loving to take care of

ex. i drive an 06 VW Jetta, and when i started i wish i knew it was a PITA



anyone else have the same problem?

[togwt]

Paint density is determined primarily by OEM paint specification requirements, the variables are; the type of resin used, the type of hardeners and other additives, types of solvents used and the paint drying process used.



Somewhat surprisingly, paint hardness actually varies significantly between different makes of car, and also in some cases between different ages of the same make and model of car. The reasons why this is so are quite complicated, but suffice to say it is extremely important that paint hardness is properly taken into account when polishing, because if it is not then inappropriate polishing products and pads may be selected that either remove too much paint or turn out to be completely ineffective .



Compiling a chart that lists the consistency of automotive paint can only at best be a rough guide, as this would necessitate listing by; manufacturer, OEM assembly plant, model year, colour, new or aged, paint specification, and etc. To ascertain paint hardness requires extensive experience working on a wide range of vehicles to have a point of reference.

[Accumulator]

dubber- I suspect I have a view almost completely opposite of your take on the Jetta`s hard clear



I *LOVE* really hard clear like on my Audis and I simply won`t own a car with soft paint. I`ve written off a number of vehicles simply because people here have reported that their paint is generally on the soft side.

[buda]

From my research and over 30 years in the detail industry I believe that the "thing" about paint hardness is more of a myth than a reality.



Hardness of paint has to do with solids in the paint. Laquers were quite hard when dried because they had a great deal of solvents in them. That is why you could see "cracks" in a laquer paint finish.



When enamels were introduced, their advantage, among other things, was that they sprayed shiney and did not have to be buffed out, but they contained more solids so were softer than laquer.



BUT saying they are soft does not mean they are "soft" to the point you can put a mark in them with your fingernail.



Then when the EPA cracked down on solvents emitted into the enviroment the paint companies went to 2 part chemically curing paint systems that had even more solids.



In the factory these 2 part thermal and chemically curing paint systems have to be heated to 400 degrees to cure and it seems to me that they would not come out "soft."



The fact that a paint has more solids does not mean that it is "soft" in the sense of the word that is commonly defined as soft.



Bottomline, I have yet to find a paint finish from any maker, American; Asian, European in any country, that is soft or requires any special treatment other than a proper diagnosis of the paint system, clear coat or single stage; the problem and then the choice of the right tool, pad and compound.



If you find you have a paint finish that is "soft" then you have a problem. I have seen paint finishes where you could put a mark in the paint with a fingernail and there was a problem. Typically it is usually on aftermarket paint jobs.



Just my experience, maybe someone else has some different experience or facts.



Bud Abraham

[Thomas Dekany]

Bud - I think what we "new school" () detailers call soft clear is the clear that marrs just by wiping it with a micro fibre towel. Obviously the clear isn`t "soft" but what would you call such a finish?

From my research and over 30 years in the detail industry I believe that the "thing" about paint hardness is more of a myth than a reality.



Hardness of paint has to do with solids in the paint. Laquers were quite hard when dried because they had a great deal of solvents in them. That is why you could see "cracks" in a laquer paint finish.



When enamels were introduced, their advantage, among other things, was that they sprayed shiney and did not have to be buffed out, but they contained more solids so were softer than laquer.



BUT saying they are soft does not mean they are "soft" to the point you can put a mark in them with your fingernail.



Then when the EPA cracked down on solvents emitted into the enviroment the paint companies went to 2 part chemically curing paint systems that had even more solids.



In the factory these 2 part thermal and chemically curing paint systems have to be heated to 400 degrees to cure and it seems to me that they would not come out "soft."



The fact that a paint has more solids does not mean that it is "soft" in the sense of the word that is commonly defined as soft.



Bottomline, I have yet to find a paint finish from any maker, American; Asian, European in any country, that is soft or requires any special treatment other than a proper diagnosis of the paint system, clear coat or single stage; the problem and then the choice of the right tool, pad and compound.



If you find you have a paint finish that is "soft" then you have a problem. I have seen paint finishes where you could put a mark in the paint with a fingernail and there was a problem. Typically it is usually on aftermarket paint jobs.



Just my experience, maybe someone else has some different experience or facts.



Bud Abraham

[buda]

Bud - I think what we "new school" () detailers call soft clear is the clear that marrs just by wiping it with a micro fibre towel. Obviously the clear isn`t "soft" but what would you call such a finish?

Good question. Let me talk with my paint industry contacts and see what they have to say about the paint finishes that easily mar.



Bud A

[Thomas Dekany]

Yeahhhhh! Bud actually responded to me!!!! Thanks Bud.





PS: Specifically a clear like the Jet Black BMW Paint. I appreciate any light on such finishes.

Good question. Let me talk with my paint industry contacts and see what they have to say about the paint finishes that easily mar.



Bud A

[buda]

Why would I not respond to you? Have put out a couple of emails to friends in the automotive paint industry to get their responses.



You mention a Jet Black BMW Paint. Could it be that all cars mar but you only see the mars on black or darker colored paint finishes? I do not believe you would see mars on white, biege, gold, etc paint finishes. Just a thought.

Yeahhhhh! Bud actually responded to me!!!! Thanks Bud.





PS: Specifically a clear like the Jet Black BMW Paint. I appreciate any light on such finishes.

[wascallyrabbit]

i to am curious as to what is the proper term if not "soft". could it be that while clears are not really soft that there is a difference in the actual hardness of the clears.

[buda]

That is what I am hoping to find out from my contacts with the automotive paint companies. Will advise



Buda

[buda]

As promised, got a reply from one of my contacts, Ron Ketcham, who is one of the most knowledgeable people in the industry, and he says as follows:



1. Clear-coat hardness can vary depending on the paint supplier and which of their various clear coats were used.



2. The auto manufacturing plant could have made a decision to speed up the painting process by varying the heat-cure cycle.



3. The auto manufacturer have a solvent change made to the clear coat being used contrary to what the automotive paint company recommends. (Cadillac did this a few years ago with problematic results). They did this to produce less orange peel in the cured clear-coat, but which resulted in a clear-coat that was subject to marring much easier, but was super smooth.



4. Is the clear-coat "soft" all over the vehicle or just a certain panel. This could indicate a after-assembly line paint repair.



5. A clear-coat is only truly dense in the top .05 mil, below that it is normally less dense, that is, has greater porasity, in other words reacts as if it is "soft."



6. If someone aggressively buffed the clear to obtain their vision of perfection and removed in excess of .03 to .05 mil they are usually into that softer, less dense portion of the clear coat as mentioned above.



7. The above could have been done at the dealership attempted to remove acid rain etching.



8. When these conditions are present, yes a microfiber towel may slightly mar the finish.



9. However if the customer is one who regularly applies coat after coat of wax or sealant, then it could be the wax/sealant that is creating the "marring" effect, not the paint finish.



Hope that provides some insights into clear coats and marring. Should have a couple of other responses by tomorrow



Regards

Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

[Darkstar752]

Thanks for the response Bud, that was very insightful and a good read.

[dubber]

Thanks Bud and everyone for the usefull information.

I suppose i did`nt really word my original post correctly.

[buda]

Additional input from the Manager of Research & Development from another automotive paint company who choses to remain anonymous:



"OEM clear coats are not soft. There are, however several different hardness tests used on paints before they pass the particular OEM qualification specification for their use in the factory. But paints used in the aftermarket are a much different story. If a vehicle has been repainted it often is done with a clear that does not have to pass the OEM hardness."



Hope that offers further insight into "soft clears."



Bud Abraham

DETAIL PLUS SYSTEMS

[wascallyrabbit]

in the world of clears there is soft and hard even with in the oem standards. some euro oem clear maybe harder/softer (not usually) than some us oem clear. the aftermarket is a whole other game.