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Wax, sealant, cure time


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#1 opass

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 09:38 PM

Recently I detail 2 cars with sealant top with wax without letting the sealant to cure (24 hours+). What could happen? Am I going to lose the wet look sooner than wax by itself? I am not concern about long long durability. The main reason to mix with sealant and wax is for special effect such as wetter, deeper, shinner, pop looks. As long as the combo can last as long as wax by itself. I am happy. Question: If I don't have time to allow the sealant to cure and add wax on top within an hour, the finish can last at least like the wax, less than wax or longer than wax? What's the disadvanture not letting the sealant to cure before wax? Durability? all the layers will disappear at the next wash or rain? chemical reaction and lead to smoking?? joke aside what's wrong? Thanks.

#2 Scottwax

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 09:59 PM

You will probably lose some of the sealant's durability but if you like the look and don't mind adding another coat of wax a bit sooner, no harm done.

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#3 JDookie

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:03 PM

I'd say that the biggest disadvantage to not letting the sealant cure before topping it would be longevity. If you don't give the sealant enough time to cure it will not bond correctly to the paint and just wear off faster. You will still probably get the look you are after, or at least most of it, if you top it right away but will only get the longevity of the very last step. So if your last step is a carnauba, then you will probably only get the protection of the carnauba and not the much longer protection of a fully cured sealant under a carnauba.

I like to use sealants and look at the carnauba topper as a protectant specifically for my sealant, and just reapply as needed. You know, you don't HAVE to top your sealant 24, 48, or even 72 hours later. I've waited as long as two weeks to top PB's EX with Souveran and the added gloss of Souveran on top of EX was *still* extremely apparent. I'd say to try to wait the 24 hour minimum, even if it means you won't top it for a week or two later.

#4 usdm

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Posted 17 March 2005 - 10:49 PM

To add to what Scottwax said..

From my understanding, most sealants need to
"air" cure. It is similar to the curing of freshly painted
cars, without the long wait before waxing. The cure time
is needed to allow the solvents in the liquid form to be
released once applied to a panel. Allowing the sealant to
"outgas", helps it to properly bond to the paint, leaving
behind a coat that dries hard, and is durable. Applying
wax over a fresh coat of sealant can negate this, resulting
in a bond that is short lived.

It is best to follow the instructions for application of
these products. You'll get much better results.
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#5 opass

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 06:41 AM

Originally posted by JDookie
[BYou know, you don't HAVE to top your sealant 24, 48, or even 72 hours later. I've waited as long as two weeks to top PB's EX with Souveran and the added gloss of Souveran on top of EX was *still* extremely apparent. I'd say to try to wait the 24 hour minimum, even if it means you won't top it for a week or two later. [/B]


I see. Somehow I am not aware and forget that I am pushing the detail process way to fast. This is very helpful. :)

#6 blkZ28Conv

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 06:51 AM

The most extreme side-effect of not allowing a sealant to properly bond and cure before applying a carnauba topper is the complete removal of the sealant. Most carnuabas have a solvent carrier. This solvent will basically wipe-off the partially bonded-zero cured sealant. In short, you are just seeing the carnuaba.
As stated above, allow a sealant to cure as long as possible prior to topping with anything, including itself unless it has an accelerator that allows multiple coats in 1 day (i.e. ZFX). actually longer than 24hrs is better. Most sealant do not reach their pinnacle of appearance glory until completely cured. This process may take a week. That is why many state that their sealant treated vehicle actually looks better after a few day. :xyxthumbs
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#7 opass

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:18 AM

Originally posted by blkZ28Conv
The most extreme side-effect of not allowing a sealant to properly bond and cure before applying a carnauba topper is the complete removal of the sealant. Most carnuabas have a solvent carrier. This solvent will basically wipe-off the partially bonded-zero cured sealant. In short, you are just seeing the carnuaba.
As stated above, allow a sealant to cure as long as possible prior to topping with anything, including itself unless it has an accelerator that allows multiple coats in 1 day (i.e. ZFX). actually longer than 24hrs is better. Most sealant do not reach their pinnacle of appearance glory until completely cured. This process may take a week. That is why many state that their sealant treated vehicle actually looks better after a few day. :xyxthumbs



You guys are so nice. Really learn a lot from Autopiaen. So far the only protection that I allow to cure correctly is ZAINO.

#8 Lowejackson

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:26 AM

It is all relative. If the sealant 90% cures in an hour and then you add some wax the sealant will still outlast the wax

#9 blkZ28Conv

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Lowejackson
It is all relative. If the sealant 90% cures in an hour and then you add some wax the sealant will still outlast the wax


The question still stands on the degree of cured status. 90% in 1 hour :nixweiss. Where is the derivation of this number. I can not dispute this 90% claim but it would be nice to know if this is a neighborhood internet myth or a sealant producer's claim.

If I personally produced a sealant that was 90% cured in one hour, I would state that "my" sealant is ready for re-application in one hour. This would definitely be a great selling point. I see no sealant producers making this claim.

Second question about the 90%.
Does the 90% stand for the amount of complete crosslinking or 90% of the crosslinking process has occurred. The former would be tolerant of a re-application. The latter would not because the bonds (crosslinks) are still very labile.
I sort of doubt that this high of a percentage (90%) is actually fully cured. JMHO. :nixweiss

This is not a seed for an augument but for fuel for discussion. :xyxthumbs
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#10 Lowejackson

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 07:49 AM

No the 90% was just a nominal figure. Sorry for the lack of clarity. The propose was to illustrate that even when less than total curing had taken place, most sealants would still outlast a wax.

I understand this is not an ideal method or technique.

Obviously there are many variable factors such as atmospheric conditions and the attributes of a particular sealant and that is why I am generalising.

#11 mirrorfinishman

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 08:13 AM

Originally posted by opass
Recently I detail 2 cars with sealant top with wax without letting the sealant to cure (24 hours+). What could happen?

Am I going to lose the wet look sooner than wax by itself?

If I don't have time to allow the sealant to cure and add wax on top within an hour, the finish can last at least like the wax, less than wax or longer than wax?

What's the disadvanture not letting the sealant to cure before wax?

Durability?

all the layers will disappear at the next wash or rain?




Nothing is going to happen when you detail a car with sealant and top with wax without letting the sealant cure 24 hours.

No, you are not going to lose the wet look sooner than wax by itself.

The finish will last longer than the wax even when you don't have time to allow the sealant to cure and add wax on top within an hour.

There is basically no major disadvantage not letting the sealant to cure before wax.

Since you are not that concerned 'about long long durability' that should not really be a factor.

No, all the layers will not disappear at the next wash or rain.

#12 TOGWT

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 08:16 AM

The problem I see with a non-cross-linked polymer that has a Carnauba wax applied over it, is that the solvents in the wax will leach oils to the polymer which will affect its catatonic bonding with the paint (as well as its strength and durability as already stated) and why the polymer is in a ‘flux’ (i.e. not yet fully bonded0 the wax (which relies mostly on surface tension, which works best with a solid (as opposed to a semi liquid surface) so it’s bonding is also effected.
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#13 blkZ28Conv

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 08:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mirrorfinishman
Nothing is going to happen when you detail a car with sealant and top with wax without letting the sealant cure 24 hours.
There is basically no major disadvantage not letting the sealant to cure before wax.
[QUOTE]


Please expand of this statement. As TOGWT sig once stated "knowledge unshared is wasted".

The science and your statement do not match. :nixweiss

Please convince me. I would love to close that 24 hr window. :wavey
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#14 mirrorfinishman

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 09:21 AM

As most pro detailers will tell you, they usually do not have the luxury of waiting 24 hrs in order to add a wax on top of a sealant.

Actually, when I stop and think about it, I can go all the way back to soon after I started my own detailing business in 1986 when I somehow discovered that using Meguiar's #26 over top of their #20 yeilded very good results. Both in an increase in the depth of gloss, especially on black and dark colored vehicles and the perception of an overall increase in durability. Hey, if one coat is good, then two layers of protection certainly has to be even better.

I remember talking with someone from Meguiar's very early on and explaining the two step process that I had begun to use. Basically, I just wanted to know whether it was better to put the carnauba on top of the polymer, like I had been doing or did I need to reverse the products. At that time I was told that yes, it was better to stay with my original process and put the carnauba on top of the polymer. The Meguiar's rep also said that although I may in fact remove some of the polymer during the application of the carnauba, I would still be gaining from the benefits of both the layer of polymer and the added layer of carnauba. At that time there was no mention of the polymer needing 24 hrs of curing time or any of this cross linking scientific stuff. Hey, it actually sounded to me like I might have been one of the first people who had figured out that two coats had to be better than one coat. Especially, when you could clearly see better results, due to the enhanced depth of gloss.

Based on my own experience, there is no major disadvantage of not waiting 24 hours before adding a layer of wax. And I have not seen any negative effects caused by detailing a car with a sealant and topped with a wax before waiting 24 hours.

#15 superstring

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 09:24 AM

Interesting discussion.

Posted by TOGWT

The problem I see with a non-cross-linked polymer that has a Carnauba wax applied over it, is that the solvents in the wax will leach oils to the polymer which will affect its catatonic bonding with the paint (as well as its strength and durability as already stated) and why the polymer is in a ‘flux’ (i.e. not yet fully bonded0 the wax (which relies mostly on surface tension, which works best with a solid (as opposed to a semi liquid surface) so it’s bonding is also effected.


Any thoughts about a product such as Poorboy's EX, which, as you all probably know, is a sealant/carnauba combo!?

#16 TOGWT

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 09:45 AM

As TOGWT sig once stated "knowledge unshared is wasted".
“The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated”. Oscar Wilde

I’m in agreement with blkZ28Conv



Cross-Linking (Polymerization)-is the formation of a molecular or covalent (chemical) bond that allows the polymer chains to obtain strength and durability, it is both time and temperature / humidity dependant. Sufficient time (from 12 –72 hours) should be allowed between removing residue and applying more other product.

As this is a scientific fact true of all polymers, please disclose information / source for the statement_ “There is basically no major disadvantage not letting the sealant to cure before wax.” Thanks.
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#17 blkZ28Conv

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 10:41 AM

Frank,
What I take from your statement is that you have not seen any difference in performance (interval between detailing is less than the durability of your "rapid" combo) and the appearance with rapid application of a carnuaba topper over an uncured sealant is equivalent. I respect your empirical observation but I am a little uneasy with the ethical aspect in addition to the science previously mentioned..

How do you sell or steer a client towards your sealant jobs?
a sealant durability advantage over most carnuabas?
I do side jobs and sell sealants for their durability and recently, with the new gen of sealants, also appearance (i.e Z2-PRO).

How do you sell or steer a client towards the "rapid" combo? Durability and appearance?
Do you inform client that the sealant is being compromised by not allowing the sealant to cure and bond properly and that the admixture (uncured sealant and carnuaba) is less structurally strong as cured sealant alone and that a post carnuaba application after the sealant cures (min 24hrs) is a better deal in terms of durability and appearance?

I do not offer this "rapid" combo. I will offer to top a client's sealant with a carnuaba after their next wash .

Mind you I am not doing this for a business, so my outlook maybe skewed towards the idealistic side.
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#18 Lowejackson

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 12:41 PM

Why can I apply Klasse SG after AIO without waiting 24 hours.

#19 blkZ28Conv

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 12:51 PM

Because the main function of AIO is cleansing. Yes, it does have a protective element (same as SG) in it. By applying SG you are not mixing to different agents (carrier solvent and protective elements). Because of this, any disruption of initial crosslinking that occurred during the AIO application will be quickly mended by the addition of the same crosslinking agents in SG. At this point 24 hours is required to fully cure both the AIO's and SG admixture.
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#20 Scottwax

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Posted 18 March 2005 - 05:43 PM

In Frank's defense, it could be a situation unique to #20, which hazes almost instantly. It could be that it is curing sufficiently that topping with #26 right away doesn't remove a sufficient amount of #20's protection to reduce durability.

I've done #20/#16 and at the 3.5 month point when I rewaxed both vehicles, they were still beading very well and had good slickness. Of course, I have no way of knowing whether or not if it was just the layer of #16 or the combination of the two that was giving me excellent results.

Personally, I tend to use #20 as an AIO type product rather than an LSP sealant.

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