Lets all Diet & get in shape

[YoSteve]

Hey Acc, sup all. Over the weekend, I got carded.
Carded at the new freakin Bruce Willis war movie. A decade ago, I still could've gotten into the movie. Imagine if I had forgotten my ID and that I were on a date, oh man.

Anyways, I'm still at the diet (it's tough to eat so much). I'm still working out 6-8 reps till failure 3-4 sets. Yesterday was leg day, grrr, it is getting better, I am getting leaner. Slowly but surely.

Acc, question, when you first started, when did you hit normal size (the size when you no longer felt puny, I guess) or you said you just hit your stuff just recently 1) what took so long 2) is there anything you can share with me so that I don't take as long as you did

[Accumulator]

YoSteve- You got CARDED?!? You oughta write that one in a journal or something..you can look back and say how well preserved you still were in 2003

I hit my "OK size", like 40-42" coat, 31" pants in my early thirties. I still didn't look quite the way I wanted to though. I was VERY lean and muscular ("cut") but I looked exactly like a very skinny guy who worked out. It's sorta a subtle thing, but I would rather look less like a "skinny guy" period. Things like my VERY small wrists bugged me too. So I switched from machines to an almost exclusively free weight workout and switched to low rep sets. I quit working more than one body part per workout and started doing each body part only once every 6-10 days.

I now look somewhat more massive (though I hesitate to use that word; I'm NOT some huge guy now or anything, just much more "solid" looking). Less the "collection of muscles stuck on a thin guy". It's subtle but noticeable. I haven't had it tested lately, but I'd say my bodyfat is still no more than 8.5% at a little under 175 lbs (I don't weigh myself much, and I distrust the scale I have, so that's not too accurate). The other day I couldn't fasten a cufflink due to wrist growth and suit coats that fit fine last year sure don't now, though the waists of my pants are still fine. Visible progress that people comment on. Primarily the result of using better form, lower reps, and heavier weights.

Why'd it take so long/how to avoid taking so long? I made typical mistakes/don't make those mistakes. Long-winded version follows:

Eat lots of good food. You seem to be on the right track there.

Use free weights instead of machines whenever possible (OK, I can see using a machine for leg curls, though I prefer straight-leg deadlifts). Remember that with free weights it's all about GRAVITY and gravity pulls straight down. Use perfect form. Make sure you're always working the muscle you want to work, and through its full range of motion. Avoid the "smith machine" and ANY machine for arms (the preacher/scott bench is good IF you use it right).

Do your chest work with dumbbells or a barbell using IMPECCABLE form. For back, do strict rows with free weights and if you're strong enough for pull-ups, then NEVER use the lat pulldown machine. Don't use body english or swing/sway. When you can do more than 10 pull-ups, hold a dumbbell between your legs.

Do squats, again with IMPECCABLE form, instead of leg presses and NEVER do leg extensions.

Generally, avoid "isolation" exercises except for calves and forarms. Use medium to low reps for everything except calves and abs, and never go over 20 reps for them, either. Go heavy weight/low reps for triceps (and don't bother with kick-backs). Skinny guys can REALLY reshape their forearms and wrists by doing work with large-diameter objects and working on their gripping strength (this can be pretty dramatic, ask me how I know ).

Make sure you lift long enough and hard enough (thin guys like us can often manage a LOT more than the usual 3-5 sets; the other day I did over 20 sets for back and was still going strong when I quit- rare and extreme, but I was really "in the zone"). Emphasize form over amount of weight. AVOID INJURY! If the target muscles aren't sore within a day or so then you didn't hit 'em hard enough. Be patient, but if your muscles don't grow (and/or get stronger) you're doing something wrong.

Oh, and don't neglect the cardio. Healthy is good.

If anyone wants any specific tips on any specific exercises/bodyparts, just ask away; I've been able to "tweak" a lot of movements in ways that seem to work well.

[PrinzII]

Originally posted by Accumulator
PrinzII- OK, first day's workout noted. You're on your way. Let's see..I AM all for brief, intense workouts, but yours sounds a bit TOO brief. I wonder if your blood pressure meds are cutting down on your stamina (some do, some don't). Just something you might have to work around. Armchair-personal-trainer $0.02 follows:

You did the elliptical (good choice, easy on the knees!) first for 5 minutes- good. I ASSUME that was five pretty tough minutes. Every minute seems like FOREVER when you're starting out, I know! At some point it REALLY does get easier, I promise! Try adding something sorta easy like an extra 15 seconds (even if you have to lower the intensity some) next time and see what happens. But DON'T push yourself too hard. You don't want to burn out and get to where you're just DREADING doing your cardio. Cardio is a life-long thing, so you want to (almost) enjoy it.

On the ab machine, how many reps did you do? Most people do too many and too easy repetitions for abs. Oh, and I'd DEFINITELY do your ab work last. Your abs support you during all your other lifts so you don't want them to poop out on you when you might need them. Think of ab work as the finishing touch, like a Souveran topper (couldn't resist the detailing analogy ).

Bench press: Your pecs/delts/tris are gonna need more than one set/rep. If I misunderstood, please clarify. Try two LIGHT warm-up sets (and I mean light!! Even a bare bar!) of 5-7 reps to warm up your chest and especially your shoulders. Avoiding injury is always my first priority, so you just GOTTA warm up. Then, instead of 1 rep at 155, do a few (as many as you can) at about 120 or less. Rest 2.5 minutes. Do as many as you can again. If it's less than 3, you should've dropped the weight down lower (you'll learn through experience how to change the weight as you go). Eventually you'll want to try to rest 3 minutes and do it again (a third work set). The general goal will be two warm-up sets and three work sets. The work sets should consist of 5-10 reps each. The muscles you're working will respond best to that number of reps. Singles (1 rep) and doubles (2 reps) will build a certain specific kind of strength, but not what you're after. BTW, I do 99% of my presses with dumbbells. It means using lighter weights, but I like the results better (and so do my shoulders!). If you want to try it that way, use LIGHT dumbbels.

Pulldown: Again, too few reps. Lower the amount of weight you're using so that you can do the same set/rep pattern I listed for benchpresses. For form, DON'T lean back, DON'T let your arms do the work instead of your back, DON'T let your shoulders go "slack" at the top (when your arms are nearly straight), DO imagine trying to touch your elbows together behind your back, DO grip the bar pretty hard to keep tension (the good, joint-protecting kind) on your elbows and shoulders.

Even when you're just starting out, you want to do MULTIPLE sets of MULTIPLE reps, even if it means using the lightest weights in the gym. This approach will help with the weight loss, the muscle growth, the stamina-building, your sense of balance, everything.

Other tips: Keep a training log. I record every rep I do and everything I feel (good/bad/strong/weak). Also record if you get sore and how long it lasts (some muscular soreness is desireable). As well as keeping track of your weight loss, see if someone can test your bodyfat % for a reasonable fee (around here it's $10). It's sorta gratifying to watch that particular number go down.

If the elliptical work seems to tire you out, either do it on another day or do your weight work first. Maybe try doing a big muscle group (like chest, back, or legs) combined with a small muscle group (like biceps, triceps, or deltoids) instead of two big ones like chest and back. Remember, you're an almost-codger of 35 (heh heh, at 43 I can tease anyone younger!) and you're a big guy. You don't want to try to do too much each time. BTW, don't worry about how heavy/light the weights you use are for now. Go for good form. After you get experienced, you're gonna be one STRONG guy, so stay patient.

BTW, I hope I don't come across as some egomaniacal know-it-all. I've really STUDIED this stuff for years and everyone I've trained/trained with has done well, from young guys to my wife to my late father (who didn't start lifting until he was in his 80's). I hope I can sorta "cut to the chase" for people who don't want/need to read everything out there and sort the good from the bull. And there's just SOOO much bull out there...

Actually, that's why I came to you because of the knowledge you have on the subject. Considering I am restarting a routine after being sedentary for quite a few years, I needed to find the correct way to go with this.

One thing I did like about that workout (taking the advice about not letting exercises collide) was that I mixed everything up. I like the elliptical because it's low impact and will help me build stamina.

As far as the reps on the machines were concerned, I did 2 reps, but they were around 50-100 times each.

The benchpress at 155 was just for kicks to see if I could handle it.

[YoSteve]

Hey Acc, thanks for the loads of advice. I really appreciate it.

A lot of what you said is exactly true.

I however don't mind looking like a skinny guy with muscles on me. I'm actually after that.


Questions:

So if I do wide grip pull ups (assisted) I don't have to do lat pulls. I'm doing them assisted and working my way up to less and less counterweight help. Currently I'm at 70lb assist I think, so I'm little past half way there. I'm barely at 120 in lat pulls.


Observations:

I did like the kickbacks today, they seem to work the parts closest to your rotator cuff (not sure if that's an admirable buldge)


You are so right about being able to do much more. I work each exercise to exaustion and then 3-5 minutes later I'm ready to go again. I average like 1.5 hours working out when I really need to limit it to 1 (I guess I get my stamina and drive from detailing )

I hit the 60's on the dumbells for bench press today, yay! One frequenter said, that I'm moving up to the big weights rack now. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to put on pull ups next week. He's like, how do you do that exercise, and I'm just like, hehe, no pull ups the diapers (I know cheezy joke).

Thanks good.

[Accumulator]

PrinzII- Thanks for the vote of confidence. I wonder if we're miscommunicating about reps/sets.

I did 2 reps, but they were around 50-100 times each

As I'm intending it, each time you "do" an exercise, like each time you pull down on the pulldown, that's a REP. The reps you do continuously before stopping to rest equal a SET. So MAYBE what you did was "two sets of 50-100 repetitions each". Whatever, just wondering if we're not being clear.

Being able to bench 155 right off the bat sure isn't shabby! I think you can really expect some progress if you try what I suggested, INCLUDING the warmups.

You're CERTAINLY right about the elliptical building stamina. Keeping your progress incremental on it will help you avoid burning out. Lots of people end up HATING their cardio, but I usually don't mind it, in part because I don't ALWAYS kill myself at it.


YoSteve- I get the sneaked suspicion that the looks we're after are REALLY more similar than not. It's not like us ectomorphic guys can ever really change how we're put together.

My wife would be very envious of your access to an assisted pullup machine, she LOVES those. I'm ALMOST tempted to get her one for our home gym. Yeah, in your case, I'd stick with those and forget the pulldowns. The strength you develop from pullDOWNS somehow doesn't transfer into the ability to do pullups/chins. Just keep trying to use less and less assistance. I assume you're doing them with all three hand positions (palms up, down, and facing each other). Watch that you don't use too much ARM strength when doing them palms up (I no longer do them this way, get better back/lat results palms down).

FWIW, in the early 90's I was doing lat pulldowns at about the same weight as you, 120 or so. Having switched to ONLY pullups/chins and barbell rows, I'm now doing the palm-down pullups with LOTS of additional weight. I've also recently put larger-diameter, rotating sleeves on the pullup bar to make them even tougher Once you get to where you can do them unassisted, get ready for some remarkable progress.

Gee, you got good results from kickbacks? OK, whatever works! And all muscular bulging is good. Actually, I do maybe a dozen sets of them throughout the year. They really hit the CONTRACTED position of the medial and lateral heads. If you want to really build some arm size, concentrate on the LONG head of the tris. For the single best movement for this (IMO), do French presses/lying tricep extensions/"skull crushers" (pick your favorite name) using an EZ-curl bar on a DEcline bench. Pick up the bar with an palms down, thumbless grip (thumbs alongside your index fingers, AKA "monkey grip"). This way your palms will be facing UP when you're lying on your back doing the exercise. Don't let your elbows flare out, keep your shoulders stationary (only your elbow joint moves), tilt your arms back towards your head a little (not quite perpendicular to the ground). Lower the bar until it just touches your forehead/eyebrows/bridge of your nose (should feel a REAL stretch). PAUSE, then push it up until your elbows lock out. The obvious cautions about something called "skull crushers" apply

Presses with 60's! You ARE moving into the big weights. Thin-guy tip: concentrate on INCLINE presses instead of flat bench ones. Building the upper chest can make for a better-built look.

How long do you usually wait between sets? You've noticed how if you wait long enough you REALLY recover. I vary it quite a bit, usually rest about 2.0-3.5 minutes between sets (another thing I keep track of in my training log).

Pull-ups diapers indeed

[YoSteve]

It's like having a personal trainer. Thanks for the advice and thank God, I don't have to do any more lat pull downs it was just getting to difficult to hold myself down if you know what I mean, I needed rollercoaster shoulder cage instead of that knee bar.

The workout program I'm on at the moment has me varying 3-4 sets of 5-8 sets (each done so that the last rep is 1 less than failure). Then I vary 60-120 seconds between sets and vary 3-5 minutes between exercises. It really allows me to move up in weights.

One thing though, I think it's going to take a long time to look right. I think just the way I'm built I look funny with muscles. I'm not naturally veiny or defined, so it's going to take some extra work after I get my size up.

[Accumulator]

YoSteve- Glad to hear you won't miss the pull-downs. They're really only good for people who don't have the assisted pull-up machine available.

Heh heh, why stop before failure? There are different opinions on this, but for chins, for instance, I don't quit a set until I've really failed to get all the way up. "Dangerous" lifts like squats are different, but I go to failure on most movements. Or I go until I have to loosen up my form a bit to get that last rep. Just don't keep going so long that your form REALLY falls apart.

I'd rest a bit more between sets, that way you can REALLY up the weight. The 1-1.5 minute rests aren't always long enough for your NERVOUS SYSTEM to prepare for another set. The MIND-MUSCLE LINK is often sorta tenuous for us ectomorphic guys anyhow, so we can't really do another set so fast, even if our MUSCLES have supposedly recovered. Big guys need to rest longer for different reasons, but I've found that MOST people need more than the 1-1.5 minutes that everyone recommends. Try resting 3 (or more) minutes between sets of squats and see what happens!

I think it's going to take a long time to look right. I think just the way I'm built I look funny with muscles

That might be what I meant by the "skinny guy with muscles" look. There will be a noticeable change after you've been lifting for a while, especially after you're able to use heavier weights. I wouldn't worry about the veiny/vascular look (most people think it looks weird anyhow) and the definition will take care of itself as you build muscle and loose fat. Sticking with free weights and compound movements (as opposed machines and isolation exercises) will help you look more like a "muscular guy" and less like a "collection of musclar bodyparts".

[YoSteve]

I think I just look plumpier with muscles, that's all. I'll take skinny guy with muscles though

[PrinzII]

I forgot to mention that I did 1 set (10 reps) at 155.

[Accumulator]

PrinzII- OH, that's VERY different! Next time you work chest, besides doing the warm-up sets, see how many reps you get on a second or even third set at that weight. I'd rest about 2-3 minutes between sets. As I keep telling you, you're gonna get STRONG once you get the hang of it.

To help build that stamina, I'd try to do SOMETHING at least every other day. That way your body will get used to being "active.

[PrinzII]

5 minutes on the exercise bike (I couldn't get to the elliptical)
2 sets of 60 abdominal crunches (This was last and I had the weight set at 100 lbs)
3 sets of 50 pulldowns (Around 80 lbs)

Arms are sore this morning.

Pretty soon, I'll be renewing my membership at Bally's so I can start working heavily on legs and knees.

[PrinzII]

I liked working on my calves when I was at Bally's because I noticed an increase in speed after that. I want to get that back.
Also, I know that once I lose weight and work on legs, that will help in regards to running speed.

Eventually, I want to be able to start running on sand for increased leg strength. I already do some moderate walking around a park that has a lot of hills.