Technique vs. Product - just how important is product really? - Page 4

porta · 09-12-07, 07:55

Great thread. Knowledge is almost everything, then I have to say if you have good tools you can do the job quicker/better then with crappy tools.

But then I can´t buy the argument that PO106FF is so damn expensive. I mean come on, how much is $30 anyways on a product that is so economical and IMHO much better then lets say for example OP? 30 bucks is nothing. Wax a car and you can buy a bottle who will be enough for plenty of cars.

And we are all agree that prep is everything.

EDIT:

I don´t think Menzerna is a buzz like all other products who comes and goes. I have been using Menzerna since 2004 and I have never looked back at the old products. But I am always trying new stuffs to see if I can find something better then Menzerna. The good stuff is that Menzerna is cheaper then Meguiars, Automagic, Malco and etc here in Sweden

Coupe · 09-12-07, 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by porta

Great thread. Knowledge is almost everything, then I have to say if you have good tools you can do the job quicker/better then with crappy tools.

But then I can´t buy the argument that PO106FF is so damn expensive. I mean come on, how much is $30 anyways on a product that is so economical and IMHO much better then lets say for example OP? 30 bucks is nothing. Wax a car and you can buy a bottle who will be enough for plenty of cars.

And we are all agree that prep is everything.

Its $50 not $30

I can buy 2 32oz bottles of OP and 1 bottle of OHC for that much money. Its much much much more economical.

rjstaaf · 09-12-07, 08:02

While there is going to be a difference between the very low end of the scale and the high end, it isn't going to be as much as a lot of people like to claim. I have gotten great results with Zurtle Wax and would not hesitate to use it. To me what sets most of the high end products apart is more their ease of use rather than an extreme difference in the end results.

Here is the obligatory Zurtle Wax picture

porta · 09-12-07, 08:07

Menzerna CeramiClear PO106FF Polish 32 oz $49.95 - Optimum Car Polish 32 oz. $19.99

= $29,96

So $30 is not worth to use on a product who many swears is a far superior product then OP?

SpoiledMan · 09-12-07, 08:08

Coupe, just for reference all of the 3M that I can get local is right about $20 for a 16 ounce bottle.

Coupe · 09-12-07, 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by porta

Menzerna CeramiClear PO106FF Polish 32 oz $49.95 - Optimum Car Polish 32 oz. $19.99

= $29,96

So $30 is not worth to use on a product who many swears is a far superior product then OP?

OP= $15.99 and alot of sites have it on sale and you can get it for $12.99

OHC= $19.99 also alot of sites have it on sale from time to time and you can get it for $15.99

With a rotary and these 2 products there isnt much you cant handle.

Danase's prices for them at the moment:
Polishes, Swirl Removers, Compounds and Glazes

You can get the whole line right now for $49.99......

106ff is always $49.95 for 32oz

So really OP is way more economical.

You can swear up and down 106 is superior, but no one can actually prove it.

SpoiledMan · 09-12-07, 08:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coupe

.....

106ff is always $49.95 for 32oz

So really OP is way more economical.

You can swear up and down 106 is superior, but no one can actually prove it.

I paid ~$120 or so for a gallon of 106ff.

Are you speaking from experience after using both products? I am.

porta · 09-12-07, 08:40

I was just using the acutal prices from Optimumcarcare.com and pakshak.com

I can swear about it beacuse I actualy have used both OP and PO106FF...and IMHO PO106FF is much better. But PO106FF is maybee not better for you but you can´tell that.

$49.99 for the whole line is a very good price.

Coupe · 09-12-07, 08:41

Dosent really matter if i have, i wont spend $50 on 32oz of polish. At this point i dont see any reason to buy it. No one can actually prove its superior, until then its just another "fad" or "in thing" to me.

I need products that work, work easily and are economical. The optimum line fits that bill like a glove.

If someone can find me a website where i can get 106 for $30 or less then hell yeah i will buy it and give it a try.

Totoland Mach · 09-12-07, 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coupe

Totoland Mach is a good example, he primarily uses megs and 3M, most of those products are relatively cheap. He has some of the best C&B threads of anyone on this site, yet his products are basic and cheaply had. IIRC the most expensive he uses is 3M ultrafina se and iirc he just started using it.

I just dont buy into the whole 106ff is so great stuff. I highly doubt anyone would be able to discern the difference between a finish that was finished with 106ff or OP for example.

Coupe: thanks for the compliment. I gotta say in the year that I have been reconditioning BMW's (as opposed to detailing them), I have learned TONS! I was a product "junkie"... had shelves of stuff because I mistakenly thought they were "the" answer.

Then the BMW dealer taught me paint cutting, wet sanding, and proper use of compounds. That was/is the foundation of perfecting paint. I keep trying some different products from time to time, but always come back to the 3M or Meguiar's products. We've both learned some new techniques. For instance, introduced ONR to the shop and found it's a great product for washing between compounding and polishing. I don't have to take the car off the lift and it's quick and scratch free.

I also have a complete set of Menzerna products and will definitely say the 106FF works like a charm on Mercedes paints. I've tried it on some of the Bimmers and it does "ok" but I have the shop products that perform on an equal basis. My reconditioning goal is to remove scratches and have the paint as close to "as new" as possible. I'm still a klutz at chip filling, but I'm learning more each time I do it.

On-site or customer car detailing is a different ball game. Unlike reconditioning where you don't know who will buy the car and it has to be super clean (including engine and trunk), client detailing involves you and the customer. If you meet/exceed their expectations, you are rewarded with a happy customer and a good reference.

Well, this is an excellent thread and I never knock products. Most of today's stuff is pretty good. It's the process that's very important.

Toto

Coupe · 09-12-07, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Totoland Mach

Coupe: thanks for the compliment. I gotta say in the year that I have been reconditioning BMW's (as opposed to detailing them), I have learned TONS! I was a product "junkie"... had shelves of stuff because I mistakenly thought they were "the" answer.

Then the BMW dealer taught me paint cutting, wet sanding, and proper use of compounds. That was/is the foundation of perfecting paint. I keep trying some different products from time to time, but always come back to the 3M or Meguiar's products. We've both learned some new techniques. For instance, introduced ONR to the shop and found it's a great product for washing between compounding and polishing. I don't have to take the car off the lift and it's quick and scratch free.

I also have a complete set of Menzerna products and will definitely say the 106FF works like a charm on Mercedes paints. I've tried it on some of the Bimmers and it does "ok" but I have the shop products that perform on an equal basis. My reconditioning goal is to remove scratches and have the paint as close to "as new" as possible. I'm still a klutz at chip filling, but I'm learning more each time I do it.

On-site or customer car detailing is a different ball game. Unlike reconditioning where you don't know who will buy the car and it has to be super clean (including engine and trunk), client detailing involves you and the customer. If you meet/exceed their expectations, you are rewarded with a happy customer and a good reference.

Well, this is an excellent thread and I never knock products. Most of today's stuff is pretty good. It's the process that's very important.

Toto

I always look forward to your threads! I wish you did more!

I dont want anyone thinking im bashing 106ff, im not, i just cant justify the cost.

Dave KG · 09-12-07, 09:10

I have been using Menzerna polishes for some time too, moved to them from Meguiars polishes and was delighted with the finish that they produced, even the heavier abrasives finishing down very well, but reflecting on the move between products I think what impressed me more at the time was the ease of use of the products. Yes, the finished down very sharply to a great finish, but they did so very easily... At least, when the ambient conditions allowed them too, as on several occasions both myself and other detailers have experienced issues with the polishes in certain conditions where the flash on first pass, cake and dont break down at all - a problem solved by many by adding some cleaner wax to the polish. The wax lubricants in Menzerna clearly reacting to certain conditions...

Faced with this, I spent some time going back to Meguiars, and some other polish ranges such as Optimum and Farecla, but primarily Meguiars, in search of a polish that would reliably work in all conditions... I spent much time working with Meguiars #80-series (#84, #83 and #80 - haven't spent much time with #85 yet) as I wanted the reliability but only if I could get the Menzerna finish which at the time I viewed as being the pinnacle of machine polish finishes, and ultimately therefore the pinnacle of paint detailing. With work on technique, I found myself able to replicate the finishes I could get from Menzerna PO85RD with Meguiars #80 Speed Glaze on a selection of paint finishes, soft and hard. I say selection, as I obviously have not been able to achieve this on all finishes as I have not had access to all finished to try. This is what has prompted this thread from me at the end of the day, as honing my technique with a product has appeared to me to be what is important to get to the best finish you can achieve... Obviously a quality product is important too, but it seems to me to be less important than ultimately learning a product and how to use it.

As such, on the up and coming detailing days in the UK that I am attending, I plan to do a side by side of a few finishing polishes using the methods I honed to use each one to the best of *my* abilities (it is likely that other will have different methods and with some polishes may achieve better results than I, whereas with other polishes not achieve the results I can...) just to see if there are any real differences not just in my eyes, but many people's eyes... Its my experiment for the next few months. Such is the beauty of detailing meets, and meeting up with fellow detailers as well as it allows us all to see a range of methods and techniques to get the best from products.

Just some more of my thoughts on the matter here... When I first used 106FF after using #80, I did think that is was the better finishing polish. 85RD seemed to be the pinnacle, but I feel personally that honing my techniques has brought #80 up to a level with these polishes from Menzerna, and that they are not really in my view better finishing polishes in the achievable results (on a selection of paint types of course), but perhaps they are better in their ease of use when they are not suffering from ambient condition problems.