what causes rotary holograms?

wannafbody · 03-12-05, 05:11

it is too aggressive of a polish or is it pad selection or another factor?

Bill D · 03-12-05, 05:13

Technique and speed used also play a role

buldog · 03-12-05, 05:43

Heat a factor? Staying in one place too long and a clogged up pad. Keeping the pad clean is important.

usdm · 03-12-05, 06:54

Also dry-buffing...

Airborne Ranger · 03-12-05, 08:17

It can be many factors involved working in unison. As mentioned above such as speed, technique, dry buffing and steering with the head of the machine as opposed to using the trigger end is another facter. Too name a few. I just recently purchased the 9227 and while I am very happy with it, it will take some time to develop skills with it. Laying the pad flat causes the rotary to go one direction so you have to persuade it if you will to go other ways while not instilling holograms.

Keeping a clean work area and using the right techniques will help you minimize the possibility for instilling holograms back into the finish. Good luck,,,,,AR

MichaelM · 03-14-05, 06:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Airborne Ranger
steering with the head of the machine as opposed to using the trigger end is another facter.

So you drag the buffer around the car? I don't quite understand how this would eliminate marring or how any other method of steering would produce marring. Would you mind explaining a bit more?

tripper_11 · 03-15-05, 08:32

Cause of holograms based on my experience:

1. not laying the pad flat -

the edge of the pad tends to induce holograms in a straight linear following the pattern of the movement of your pad.

2. too much pressure -

it generates heat even if you move the pad frequently, thus creates oval shape holograms as opposed to #1

3. too much product - (and dry-buffing)

pad should be primed in order to lubricate, but too much product may also induce holograms, especially with polishes that contains too much oil. it happens when the abrasives had already broken down, and you only have the oils left on the surface. as you continue to buff, (believing that the product needs to dry-buff, i.e. dusting), the friction as well as the heat generated by the pad (both polishing and cutting pad), will tend to dry the oils as if embedding it in the surface in an uneven manner, and thus you can notice uneven reflections depending on the angle you're looking in, that is what you see as holograms.

4. too much speed -

too much product coupled with too much speed even without pressure, tends to instill holograms which happens when you have broken the diminishing abrasives quickly without you noticing it. the heat of the pad also tends to soften outer layer of the finish and is easily prone to marring.

What I generally do:

I don't dry buff generally any polish with the rotary. (except the compounds)
In the past, (as can be manifested in my previous posts), I believe that the rotary (specifically 9227c), is the only machine I need because it can run even at speed 600rpm. So in effect, I thought it can perform the job of a less powerful machine like the PC7424 or any dual-action/orbital buffer for that matter.

But then again I was wrong. there are times that after using the rotary, I need to reach for the PC to do the finishing touches.

HTH.

Terran · 03-15-05, 09:13

A related question...can holograms be removed? Like if you followed up with a PC?

Anthony Orosco · 03-15-05, 11:47

They are caused by not properly finishing out the buffing. The finer the pad and product the less swirls you'll introduce.

Swirls are micro-scratches introduced from an aggressive pad and an abrasive product, usually this choice is overkill as most of todays paints respond well to a polishing pad, which is mild, and also a mild polishing creme. Follow this step with a finishing pad and a fine swirl remover (Optimum Polish and FP are my favorite combination) and that should take care of the majority of your paint issues.

Now obviously proper control of the rotary plays a huge part also but keeping the pad completely flat is not as big of an issue as some think, at least where swirls are concerned. Speed, pressure, clean pads, etc. all are factors.

Anthony

X-Trail · 03-16-05, 01:42

I am having rotary problems myself because i am used to using the PC. I NEED to learn the Rotary because i know that there are some problems [Deep scratches, Time limitation because multiple passes needed] which cannot be solve with a PC.

I tried with my black Nissan yesterday using a rotary (LC Curved Yellow + IP). The holograms and swirls it produced its horrible. The paint condition improve a little when i use the PC to polish (White LC pad + FPII) but nothing to brag about because swirls are still there.

So when i read:

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony Orosco

Swirls are micro-scratches introduced from an aggressive pad and an abrasive product, usually this choice is overkill as most of todays paints respond well to a polishing pad, which is mild, and also a mild polishing creme.
Anthony

Does that mean by using the Rotary + Yellow Cutting Pad + IP, you cannot AVOID the swirls and hologram marks? I've tried making sure that the pad is not dry, there's enough product on the pad, Clean the Pad every panel, making sure i've applied enough pressure (Its very hard to determine how much is enough). Mastering the Rotary seems to be a hard thing to do for me.

Airborne Ranger · 03-16-05, 02:38

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaelM
So you drag the buffer around the car? I don't quite understand how this would eliminate marring or how any other method of steering would produce marring. Would you mind explaining a bit more?

No, I was saying another factor is if you steer the rotary with the handle as opposed to the trigger end then yes you will cause holograms.

But, if you just use the handle end to come along for the ride and the trigger end to actually steer the machine it will go whichever way you tell it too. When polishing or compounding or whatever your doing with it, if you take your hand that's on the trigger end and move it right, the rotary will go right on it's own due to the head spinning. If you move it left, the rotary will go left on it's own. You don't drag it around the car. The machine does most of the work, you just guide it. IF you still don't understand, ask someone on here who can explain *** I'm talking about. Explaining sh*t is not one of my strong points,,,,,,AR

Anthony Orosco · 03-16-05, 08:34

Quote:

Originally posted by X-Trail
I am having rotary problems myself because i am used to using the PC. I NEED to learn the Rotary because i know that there are some problems [Deep scratches, Time limitation because multiple passes needed] which cannot be solve with a PC.

I tried with my black Nissan yesterday using a rotary (LC Curved Yellow + IP). The holograms and swirls it produced its horrible. The paint condition improve a little when i use the PC to polish (White LC pad + FPII) but nothing to brag about because swirls are still there.

So when i read:

Does that mean by using the Rotary + Yellow Cutting Pad + IP, you cannot AVOID the swirls and hologram marks? I've tried making sure that the pad is not dry, there's enough product on the pad, Clean the Pad every panel, making sure i've applied enough pressure (Its very hard to determine how much is enough). Mastering the Rotary seems to be a hard thing to do for me.

Basically....YES

Halograms, swirls are just going to be part of the experience when using a pad that is aggressive.

If you use the IP with a LC white pad you'll notice that you have introduced far less swirls. Now use a LC black or blue finishing pad and IP and there should be even less.

Now use the LC finishing pads and FP and you should get close to having a swirl free finish. Do a side by side comparison of these various pads and products and you'll see what I am speaking of for yourself.

Airborne Ranger is correct when he states that steering with the handle is improper technique. I mentioned earlier in this thread that having a death grip on the handle and trying to control or manuver the buffer this way will just lead to trouble. It is something I did alot when I first started because I was so darned skeered

I was going to mess the car up.

The next day my forearm and hand were really sore because I was so tense. Now, years later, I can buff without having my hand on that handle (depending on what I am buffing). Many detailers place their hand on the top spindle piece or use a 2 hand technique on the main body piece. Many detailers remove the handle altogether.

What it boils down to is that swirls are due to many factors and buffing is an art, hence as with any art form, practice, practice and praying never hurt either

Anthony