GM Quality Control

[SilverLexus]

Thanks for pointing that out. This hasn't been adding up for me for a long time. Everything you buy is made in China (or Japan, or India, or somewhere other than here), yet people seem to have plenty of money for new cars, expensive houses, etc. Something is wrong with this picture, and I can't help thinking we are going to find out pretty soon.

It's not that simple...a rising tide lifts all boats, even those in China. The outsourcing thing is a poor argument since we insource some 5-6 million jobs from foreign countries versus the outsourcing of roughly a million. The cost savings from outsourcing allow you and me to buy things cheaper as well and create higher-paying white collar and creative jobs in the good ole U.S. Fortunately Chinese quality has improved greatly - look at the high quality audio gear being produced by Cayin and Shanling these days.

The consumer wins from all of this leaving all of us with more cash in our pockets.

I had a 1986 Pontiac Firebird which was always garaged for two years and finely detailed (as best I could given the products of the day). When I went to sell it two years later I found it had depreciated from $13.5K to $3.5K! From then on, I gave up on GM and the American brands. I've been loyal to Asian cars since then though we may buy a BMW 3 Series soon.

[SpoiledMan]

Mike, the lack of having that small, sporty hatch is where they miss the impressionable young buyer as I was when I made my first purchase. You know how many more cars Honda sold me because of that sporty hatch? An additional 3 and will be in the market for 2 more over the next couple years. It's the very reason why BMW, MBZ and Audi have added "affordable" cars to their lineup. They buy the less expensive car and then move their way up.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by SilverLexus

It's not that simple...a rising tide lifts all boats, even those in China. The outsourcing thing is a poor argument since we insource some 5-6 million jobs from foreign countries versus the outsourcing of roughly a million. The cost savings from outsourcing allow you and me to buy things cheaper as well and create higher-paying white collar and creative jobs in the good ole U.S.

I hope you're right. Some of us believe that a country's strength comes from being able to make things, not from "white collar and creative jobs".

The consumer wins from all of this leaving all of us with more cash in our pockets.

Unless you are one of those blue-collar workers (or plenty of white-collar ones also) that is making a lot less in his new "career" at WalMart. I work with someone who's husband has been in sales all his career, cars, copier, but mostly high-end medical equipment (ekg's, etc.)...guess who works only part-time at BestBuy now?

[SilverLexus]

Some of us believe that a country's strength comes from being able to make things, not from "white collar and creative jobs".

We still make things but a lot of the value add is in designing things. I feel bad for workers who are displaced which is why job training and a good education is so important.

[WSUcommuter]

I'm on my third S-series and I can testify that GM quality based on my three vehicles has remained poor at best. My '86 S-10 rusted in two and the engine puked at 110,000 miles and the interior was a basket case. My '92 S-10 had a damn reliable engine (vortec 4.3L) but the transmission puked at 115,000 miles, and again the interior was a basket case. My '98 S-10 has had electrical gremlins from wiper control modules going sour in rainstorms to airbag/ABS modules taking permanent vacations. Again, the interior is rattling itself apart and none have been due to misuse. FOR ME, GM had THREE chances and I'm a regular-maintenance type of guy. Meanwhile, I've driven 500,000 mile Accords that are built 45 minutes north of me in Marysville, OH. Perception or not, my own experience is enough for ME to not even consider GM when in June I go to make my next vehicle purchase.

[blkZ28Conv]

Originally Posted by SpoiledMan

Uh ohhhh......


I asked my sister last night if there was *any* domestic brand car that she would buy and her response was that she might consider a truck but none of the cars would even get a second glance. I asked why and she basically said that the cars she sees on the street while still being pretty new don't look to be holding up well.

Your sister, if she could afford one, would not like to own a Viper, Corvette, Cadillac Sport version of Vette, Mustang GT or Cobra, Chryslar's sports coupe or even a 300C SRT?
All of these vehicles are not "clones" or "grocery getters" but very good transportation.

[drewski59]

Yes, as far as domestic cars go, I've had nothing but reliability from my Cruiser(I'm a really anal maintenance guy though). Our old Chevy Astro van, which was replaced by the Honda, gave us quite a bit of grief in its lifetime: tranny, cooling system, electrical gremlins, etc...

Based on my experiences, the only domestic cars I would seriously consider over imports would be a Dodge Charger, Chrysler 300, or a Corvette. Those are sadly about the only ones left that I would actually consider if I were car shopping...

[SpoiledMan]

Originally Posted by blkZ28Conv

Your sister, if she could afford one, would not like to own a Viper, Corvette, Cadillac Sport version of Vette, Mustang GT or Cobra, Chryslar's sports coupe or even a 300C SRT?
All of these vehicles are not "clones" or "grocery getters" but very good transportation.

*I* doubt any of the coupes/sports cars would attracts her as she's much more practical than that and had coupe's for all her life until she bought her Lexus. Based on past comments from her, she doesn't think the 300 is a bad looking car on the outside, she thinks the inside leaves something to be desired.

I've seen an 300 SRT up close and it comes right just out the box, however, if you get one of the lower models it looks like a boring box. Other side of it, the car has been "gangstered" to death. Yes, I know that's not a word.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by Aurora40

Ok, I can spell it out even more if you'd like. You said the V8 is a waste of gas. In fact it goes 4 miles further for every gallon of gas burned on the highway. Now it's about how many wheels are driven? I guess everyone knows AWD uses more gas, but no one (or at least you don't) knows that automatics use more gas, as do bigger cars. You made the claim about mileage and were wrong, it's as simple as that.

Apparently I should spell out the torque too. 323 is greater than 300. Specifically, it is 23 lb-ft greater. While it may be "close to the same" depending on your point of view, there is no circumstance under which 300 is more than 323. If that's not quite clear, then let's pretend this "T" is a pound-foot. Then here's how many more the Impala SS's lame wasteful motor has over the Subie:

T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T T

As to maintenance, "everyone knows" that turbo cars typically have more frequent oil change requirements, tend to go through plugs faster, and in general just do not last as long. The turbo itself will likely not last the life of the car, unless you consider the car's life to end whenever the engine/turbo lets go.

Look at the 323 vs. 300 rpm range please.

[Aurora40]

Originally Posted by kgb

Look at the 323 vs. 300 rpm range please.

Ok? 4400 rpm vs 4000. That's irrelevant to which makes more torque, though. The absolute max the Subie makes is 300. The absolute max the Impala makes is 323. Again, 323 > 300.

Maybe you meant to say "at some rpm points the Subie makes more" or "the Subie makes more torque under the operating curve" or something other than what you actually said. Of course I doubt you have any facts at all with which to back that up, though. And the GM smallblock is hardly a motor that falls off on torque on the low end. I doubt it is down 23 lb-ft a mere 400 rpm earlier than its peak.

If you really want to compare, GM makes their power curves available to the public. Check out the meat on the SS and then see if you want to stick to your claim:

http://media.gm.com/us/powertrain/en..._Impala_SS.pdf

Unfortunately and not surprisingly, few if any other manufacturers provide this type of data. I imagine because it's not favorable, and if people saw the torque curves of their variable cam motors that "enhance low end torque" instead of just a peak number, they'd wonder if their technology was really worth the cost. I'd love to see the torque curves on some Honda motors, especially the 4-bangers that the mags love to gush about. They always mention how the vtec enhances low end torque, but of course they have no idea by how much, or whether it is merely enhanced from pitiful to lame. Of course you can physically only make so much torque from 1.6 or 1.8 or 2.0L of displacement with no forced induction, so it's not like more technology can somehow bend that. But if you can dig up Subie's measured curve for the STi, you go ahead and share it and we can let the facts speak for themselves.

Anyway, look at the curve and let me know if you would revise your assessment of how the torque compares between the two motors. Does AWD hurt torque too?

[SpoiledMan]

Originally Posted by Aurora40

Unfortunately and not surprisingly, few if any other manufacturers provide this type of data. I imagine because it's not favorable, and if people saw the torque curves of their variable cam motors that "enhance low end torque" instead of just a peak number, they'd wonder if their technology was really worth the cost. I'd love to see the torque curves on some Honda motors, especially the 4-bangers that the mags love to gush about.

Most of America doesn't care. They care that the car looks nice, runs good, holds value and is reliable over time. When GM can change the perception of that then they will be headed in the right direction. As far as the "enhanced low end torque," I'm sure they weren't comparing the cars to V8's but more likely to other 4 bangers of similar size.

Bob, it's not personal but it is apparent that most of America has the same feelings towards GM as you're finding here. I stated before that if it weren't for the fleet sales that they would be in much deeper trouble than they are now. I'm sure you'll argue that too but... At this point in their game they either have to keep paying people to take cars or they have to truly find a way to turn things around.

[Aurora40]

Originally Posted by SpoiledMan

Bob, it's not personal but it is apparent that most of America has the same feelings towards GM as you're finding here.

I don't take it personally. But, I do find it irritating some of the things people say. Imagine this. Imagine I go and say "Poorboys sucks, I wouldn't buy it" or "Zymol sucks, I wouldn't buy it" or Zaino or whatever. Clearly this is inflammatory and rude. Now imagine I say "My friend says Zaino sucks and he wouldn't buy it". Is this any different? Now change it to cars. Different?

People have opinions, some don't like GM, Chrysler, Toyota, whatever. That's cool. But express that opinion appropriately.

As to some of the "points" made, they are either tenuous or flat out wrong. Notice how no one corrects themselves when actual facts are produced? That should tell you something about their intention...

As to most of America, you might keep in mind GM still sells more cars in the US than any other maker. Certainly this is on the decline which isn't good. And they have labor problems that were not of their making. GM didn't create labor laws. And they have product problems, as do many companies in one way or another. Anyway, if you want to mention these, go for it. If you want to make generalizations not based in fact like saying "most of America" feels just about anything, expect someone to counter that with actual facts.

I am surprised you don't care about the range of power engines make. Do you care about peak power ratings? Do you ever evaluate two companies offerings based on that? Think about how the total power affects acceleration, think about how much time you spend in the 0-4000 rpm range in overall driving vs whatever rpm the torque and power peaks are at. Still think it doesn't matter? Hey, if you don't care, that's cool. But if that's the case, I hope to never hear you call any motor with strong power and good economy "low-tech" or inferior or anything like that.