"Loose Change" - 9/11 Conspiracy by Dylan Avery

[BenP]

I forgot to add - the joy of a conspiracy theory is that the debate around it becomes a conspiracy itself - in effect, a vicious circle. Unless you are 100% in the know and have the hard evidence to back it up, THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER.

Ben

[JBM]

Like I said, the shiny car in your driveway is a fable, not there and not yours... now prove me wrong. Because no matter what you say, I'm going to offer up some other (entirely plausible) absurdity that you have no counter for, and as you counter that I'll throw out others.

That would be fine, because the gov then would have planted the memory, so you are in a round about way proving my point.

If you want to prove it, you don't say, "Why was the passport of one of the alleged hijackers found intact on the street?".

I was allowing room for people to draw their own conclusions, because there really is no way, out of all the passengers on the plane, a passport of a hijacker makes it into the possession of an fbi agent. There certainly is a possibility of it happening, but there is also a possibility that Cali is going to fall into the ocean.

There is a reason that stuff isn't forthcoming. Because of the conspiracy to suppress it...? Nope. Because it isn't there.

There was a flash or explosion before both planes hit the WTC, there was a hole in the Pentagon less then 20 ft. wide, there ware no remains of the plane outside the pentagon, there was a book on a table inside the pentagon without any burn marks on it. The book is a good one, considering the fire from these planes are supposed to melt through steel, even though the steel supplier guy says it wont.

I have no idea what the answers are, and the questions raised from the videos really dont change my opinion of politicians or the gov. it only re-enforces them.

[JBM]

Originally Posted by BenP

To be honest, conspiracy or not, nobody here can prove or disprove anything - you simply have to go with what your mind tells you, and so long as you state that as your OPINION and not FACT, then we'll all get along swimmingly.

I remember 9/11 well - I was on a boat in Dingle Bay, Ireland, looking for Funghi the dolphin, but that aside, there was one thing that always stood with me that day. When I saw the towers collapse, the first thing I said was - that's not possible.

I studied Real Estate at uni and we looked at building collapse, specifically disproportionate collapse, whereby the floors below are compromised resulting in the collapse of the floors above. Considering the height at which the impacts occurred, there's no way in a modern building that it would have caused the entire structure to collapse - not without any assistance anyway. Sure, all the floors above the impact will have collapsed and the force of them falling may have taken a few (maybe two or three) floors below out, but for them to take the entire building down (especially so soon after impact) - not a chance. The buildings had the strength to hold all these floors up for the 30 or so years before the impact - that impact and the resulting collapse of the upper floors would not cause the 90 or so floors below the impact to collapse like a pack of cards and in such a controlled manner. And don't come at me with all the "jet fuel melted the steel" arguments - for it to have collapsed diretly floor upon floor, it would have had to have melted the steel in the basements - and that's just not possible from where said fuel was deposited.

But anyway, that's my OPINION. At the end of the day what's happened has happened and if there is a conspiracy then we're in it just as much as you guys considering Blair is Bush's lap-dog...

Ben

Thats my opinion also. Its impossible.

I really dont care if anyone believes me either, what worries me, is no one questions the gov., thats scary.

[wlhump]

I have seen the statement that "the jet fuel melted the steel" several times on this thread. That is not what the experts have ever said occured. The high temperatures from the burning jet fuel and other flamables inside the buildings weakened the steel structure. At temperatures well below the melting point of steel, the steel loses significant strength. At the temperatures of the fires from the jet fuel, it loses something like 50% of its strength.

I beams and columns are fabricated in that shape to minimize the steel involved while still providing the requisite strength. However, the cross-sections are very thin. The combined loss of strength from the heat itself, along with the deformation caused by the heating would cause the beams and columns to buckle. The heat would cause the steel to lengthen, and with the load of the entire upper building above it, it would have no where to go but to buckle outward. Its like loading a straw, you could stand on several of them on end as long as you loaded them evenly and they did not experience any bending. However, tap the side just a slight bit and bam, your on your a#$!

Now, as an engineer, we do overdesign items to varying degrees based on their critical nature, risk for injury and unknowns in the design (called appropriately 'factors of safety') but I would feel that the structure of the building was not at a 200% factor especially when you consider the substantial damage to the support structure from the impacts themselves.

This would cause the upper floors above the impact zone to pancake down on the damaged floors. (Creating the "suspicious puffs" of debris as they fell. You can't tell me you have never dropped a board on a dust covered surface and choked on the resulting cloud ) This means the remaining structure below the damaged floors had to withstand not the normal loads, but impact loads which will be several times the load they were normally expected to carry. This creates the chain reaction collapse we witnessed.

Take some time to read the anti-conspiracy sites. Their explanations make far more sense than the inuendos on the mentioned video. Take some time and examine each "claim" by itself, there are logical explanations for each. However, if you just want to read inuendos with no attempts at explanations as to why these items must be true, have at it.

[Scottwax]

Originally Posted by GSRstilez

These were taken from just the first page of this thread.

One thing I have been coached on thru-n-thru in college is to leave emotion, opinions, and sarcasm at the door. Bringing these to the argument will only fuel the fire more (in a negative way) and weaken your message in the eyes of the spectators. For this thread, it has done just that.

Comments referring to the music in the documentary, tin hats, tin foil, insanity, etcetera have absolutely nothing to do with a "real" debate. They are just elements of how you let emotion get the best of you. Other than FalconGuy, I haven't seen anybody really try to justify how the documentary was "incorrect".

What real debate did you expect, Sean? The video isn't really worth serious discussion. I don't understand how you can take it so seriously.

Like it was pointed out earlier, if there was something to all the allegations, you'd have reporters from the New York Times, Washington Post, et al working day and night to prove that our government was behind 9/11 especially because it lead to the downfall of President Bush. It has been 4 years since 9/11 and not one person behind this alleged conspriracy has come forward. Don't you find it odd that something of this magnituded that would require thousands of people to participate could be kept secret for 4 years? Don't you also find it hard to believe the Bush administration could have coordinated the 9/11 attacks just 9 months after he assumed office? Also, why would he? What is the political gain?

And yes, I do feel that college professors do try to push their political leanings onto their students. My older boy has been less than pleased with how much liberal agenda has been forced down his throat by a couple of his professors.

[Spilchy]

Thanks for the explanation wlhump. I saw a show on the History Channel with engineers that created a mini model of what you explained as well as explaining the pancake effect of the tons of concrete flooring formed in perfect squares of equal weight falling from the top down. I watched the second tower come down while standing on a street corner.

Scott, your son isn't alone. As a history major at Indiana University I dealt with same thing. It was infuriating and students ate it up hook, line and sinker.

[SamIam]

Spilchy,

I was a bus major at IU, took history classes but found the Psych dept was way past the history dept in trumpeting a particular world view.

Sam

[Sherman8r44]

Hell, I go to high school and the teachers are even more liberal and irrational than the students!

[Pontman43]

Originally Posted by Sherman8r44

Hell, I go to high school and the teachers are even more liberal and irrational than the students!

LOL!!! That is the way my old school was. Now I have a government teacher that doesn't express bias opinions. I couldn't believe it!

[tdekany]

I haven't seen the video.

you'd have reporters from the New York Times, Washington Post, et al working day and night to prove that our government was behind 9/11

That 's because you (Americans) have been programmed to believe that the US has freedom of press - Every form of media is controlled.

Don't you also find it hard to believe the Bush administration could have coordinated the 9/11 attacks just 9 months after he assumed office? Also, why would he? What is the political gain?

According to the conspiracy people there is a much larger plan at work then the left/right party. Supposedly there are 300 people who control everything that happens on planet earth. None of them are presidents.

The so called police state that was predicted 15+ years ago is here. Especially since 9/11.

I grew up in a communist country and unfortunately I am seeing a reflection of it right here in the US. Again, especially since 9/11

I just want to live my life and be left alone, so I don't support either side, but in the early 90s I used to get a newsletter from COSMIC AWARENESS COMMUNICATIONS and their so called channeled info predicted that in 10 years "terrorism" will be a household word. Those newsletters can be ordered today to verify. Now that part of their mambo jumbo is interesting to me.

As far as Bush - seeing him sit in the classroom & his facial expressions after being told what has just happend - I still can't believe my eyes. That is the president of the United States? Hmmmm...... Sad indeed.

Also Bin Laden's family was able to leave the country according to that movie - is that true Scott? And how do you explain that?

PS: I loved your recent details, but I was away from my computer for a week.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by tdekany

I grew up in a communist country and unfortunately I am seeing a reflection of it right here in the US. Again, especially since 9/11

Now there's a perspective that we ought to be listening to.

[Spilchy]

Originally Posted by tdekany

That 's because you (Americans) have been programmed to believe that the US has freedom of press - Every form of media is controlled.

According to the conspiracy people there is a much larger plan at work then the left/right party. Supposedly there are 300 people who control everything that happens on planet earth.

The so called police state that was predicted 15+ years ago is here. Especially since 9/11.

The United States leads the world in freedom of the press. You find me one State or Federal government controlled media outlet.

I think I saw those people who control everything in an X Files episode.

You grew up in a communist country and you're calling the US a "police state?!" We've had far more government observation on citizens during times when the President received a declaration of war from Congress like during WW2. Look at how a "police state" is defined and the examples of some and see if that even remotely applies to the U.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_state