"Loose Change" - 9/11 Conspiracy by Dylan Avery

[Setec Astronomy]

I don't want to get too deep into this, but when the planes hit the towers, you can see debris being expelled from the far side of the building (IIRC, one of the engines of one of the planes went thru a WTC tower and landed on a building on the other side). How difficult is it to imagine that some of the expelled material could be from the plane, even a passport, which would float down to the street?

And for a bunch of guys who will rip the flesh off of someone who walks onto this forum and says they have a super duper better than anything wax, some of you seem to be swallowing a similarly unsupported set of "facts" hook, line and sinker. Spilchy threw up some other examples.

That's not to say that I think this "war on terror" has been prosecuted in a productive way, or really think we are any safer than we were on 9/10/01, but I don't think we started the war (by perpetrating the attacks...perhaps in other ways) either.

[Pontman43]

OK, so I just watched the whole thing and .
It never said why the government would do this. Why would you kill thousands of your own people for no reason, nothing to gain, nothing at all?
Max, your right, this vid does make you think, think about how people could belive this stuff, if you go through the whole movie and try to counter every one of their points, you can come up with a reason within seconds, imagine if you actually did research.

[SpoiledMan]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

And for a bunch of guys who will rip the flesh off of someone who walks onto this forum and says they have a super duper better than anything wax, some of you seem to be swallowing a similarly unsupported set of "facts" hook, line and sinker.

What if you think about the government being the bringer of the end all be all wax?

[JBM]

It never said why the government would do this. Why would you kill thousands of your own people for no reason, nothing to gain, nothing at all?

The motive is something we probably cannot relate to.

Gov., countries, and people act on behalf of their own percieved self intrest.

It is clear that the gov. and The People have two seperate agendas.

The burden of proof is on the accuser, and these two video clips show some very serious flaws, that are not answered.

I aks a bunch of "why's" also, its pretty stupid to think that the people we have put our trust, faith, and protection behind would do something like this, or ALLOW it.

Lets say you guys had the rarest and most expensive car on the earth. You let your brother take it on the weekends. On Monday, do you look it over real close, or do you just assume he treated it well, filled up the gas tank, and returned it exactly the way it was to be returned?

Why shouldnt the American people put the gov under a microscope for everything they do?

Why shouldnt we look at their motives, and make sure their interests directly reflect the interests of the Amercian People?

It would be great if this was found to be a bunch of b.s. , but is anyone steppig up to prove any of this wrong?

This is just one possible betrayal of the gov against the American People.

Lets look at a few simple examples of how the gov. is not looking out for US.

In the last few years TV commercials for prescriprions drugs are relentless.

Credit Card companies have been "turned loose" on the American People.

Jobs over seas.

Health Care is being slowly removed from our life style.

People are being forced to work longer and longer in life, well past a reasonable age.

There is little certainty for people approaching retirement.

Eminant Domain is becoming pretty popular

Big Business has been "let loose" on the American public.

Small businesses are being squashed

Maybe i am paranoid, i dont trust very many people ill admit, but someting is going on, i see it, and i am just a construction worker, someone wgo REALLY pays attention to this stuff, could be alot more specific than me i am sure.

[wlhump]

This reminds me of the "We didn't go to the moon" conspiracy theories which have been thoroughly debunked.

I have a question for the theorists: If the government DID create these incidents, why would they "warn Rumsfield not to fly commercial" ? You would think they would know what was going on and just not select those planes. You can't have contradictory conspiracy theory now.

Some simple answers to some of the 'mysteries' posted on the site:

“I heard a very loud, quick whooshing sound. I was convinced it was a missile. It came in so fast – it sounded nothing like an airplane.”
- Has anyone heard the sound of a jet airplane at max speed 50 ft off the ground? Aren't we used to heaing the much lower speed of a landing/take-0ff. I submit the high speed would make a vastly different sound and would give you much less time to assimilate the sound in the first place.

"How does a Boeing 757, constructed from lightweight aluminum, penetrate over 9 ft. of steel reinforced concrete?"
- How does a tornado drive straws thru telephone poles? We have all seen these kind of pictures. Speed. High speed collisions can create some strange things. Traveling at more than 450 mph, the airliner was far faster than a tornado. Secondly, the airliner would act much like an arrow. Those of you who hunt know that an arrow penetrates very well, they will pass thru sandbags that stop bullets due to the physics of their construction, distribution of mass, etc.

"Why did a FOX News employee, who witnessed the second tower attack, report seeing no windows on “Flight 175” a commercial United Airlines jetliner? Why did another eyewitness report that United Airlines Flight 175 was not a commercial airliner? "
Have any of you ever witnessed a very emotional event in a group and discussed it later? Heck, just think about sports. Two people can watch the exact same play and each can have a very different perspective of exactly what happened. This plane was thousands of yards away, moving at a high rate of speed, after an EXTREMELY emotional event (the first strike). I bet you could probably not get every witness to agree the plan was banked left when it hit (see the video). With the banking of the plane, it is possible that the windows would not be visible from many vantage points. Remember the windows are on the top half of the fuselage and you would witness it from 80 stories below anyway.

To echo other comments, Why would the government do this? Where are the passengers?
And again, the number of people to pull off this conspiracy theory send me back to my #1 argument for any massive conspiracy....................
It would be impossible for that many people to keep their mouths shut for so long. It's just human nature. Someone would have 'hard' evidence and would have exposed it by now.
Oops, I forgot my own conspiracy theory, the pyramid hit squad scheme to eliminate witnesses.

[Mosca]

Available: tin or aluminum foil beanies, guaranteed to stop harmful rays from entering through scalp. $59.95. Choose from a variety of styles. Quantities limited to the first 50,000,000 applicants. Non-profit, price covers cost of materials and constuction plus shipping & handling. Offered as a public service.

[Mosca]

Originally Posted by JBM

It would be great if this was found to be a bunch of b.s. , but is anyone steppig up to prove any of this wrong?

You don't prove things wrong; you prove them right.

Like I said, the shiny car in your driveway is a fable, not there and not yours... now prove me wrong. Because no matter what you say, I'm going to offer up some other (entirely plausible) absurdity that you have no counter for, and as you counter that I'll throw out others.

This stuff is all a series of dubious allegations with absolutely no proof whatsoever. The standard method is to present a series of dubious allegations and allow a gullible audience to draw the lines among them.

If you want to prove it, you don't say, "Why was the passport of one of the alleged hijackers found intact on the street?". Instead you find out who planted it there, and how. If you want to allege that a missile hit the building rather than a plane, you don't offer, "People say it didn't sound like a plane, and some people say they didn't see any windows." Instead you find out who manufactured the missile and from where it was launched.

There is a reason that stuff isn't forthcoming. Because of the conspiracy to suppress it...? Nope. Because it isn't there.

You can trot out conspiracies and coverups to explain ANYTHING. But who are you going to believe; conspiracy theorists, or your own lying eyes (and common sense)?

[Brandon1]

Originally Posted by SpoiledMan

...and please, anybody, explain to me what happened to the wings and engines of this so called airplane.

I'm with you Sean. Something about the "plane" that crashed into the Pentagon S T I N K S !

I am with yall on this one also, the conspiracy about the wtc is fishy, but the pentagon is freaky! 10 tons of engine is going to make a dent, and as for the plane sticking out, what about the parts of the pentagon 3 tiers inside that were damaged?

[Spilchy]

Originally Posted by Mosca

This stuff is all a series of dubious allegations with absolutely no proof whatsoever. The standard method is to present a series of dubious allegations and allow a gullible audience to draw the lines among them.

Perfectly stated. If you do a google search with any series of words like "911" "conspiracy" "coverup" etc... you'll come up with hundreds of thousands of links. (Look at the link I provided that showed Lennon was killed by the FBI). Furthermore, you do a google search with keywords "911" and "israel" and "Zionism" and you have thousands of links that say the IIsraelis did it!! This theory is the accepted one on the street in the Arab world.

What these people do is ask questions and then make assertions with no proof to show that their assertions are true. Just because questions are not answered the way you want them to be, or just because a picture doesn't look like the way you think it should, doesn't mean you then take a retarded leap of faith and conclude that the "government" did this. It's absurd.

I'm still waiting to hear who in the "government" thought to do this, planned, coordinated, recruited, and executed this.

Setec was right - you rip spammers and their 1 year lasting waxes, but you believe this baseless, no evidence allegation. You're a prisoner of your own imagination. It's the same as people who think they've seen aliens and UFO's. Its convenient that movies in the 1950's showed flying saucers and little martians and then everyone looked up into the stars every night and the sightings sky rocketed, and those who claimed to see these things described them just like the movies! Even the pictures you see are of saucers like in the old movies before ANYONE ever described seeing flying saucers. Do another google search on UFO's and the same crack pots have hundreds of thousands of links.

[G35stilez]

Since this instantly turned into a debate here (didn't think it would be of this magnitude), I decided to reflect on some of the things stated...

Originally Posted by Scottwax

We need a tin hat smilie.

Originally Posted by Spilchy

That was probably one of the worst, dime store, pathetic conspiracy attempts out there. That hackneyed, hip hop drone in the background made it even more annoying and immature. Interpretations of grainy videos by - and interviews with - marginalized, left wing conspiracy theorists are not worth their weight in spit. Until someone whistle blows and comes forth with the plans by our “government” to carry out this attack (as insane, preposterous, false and completely lacking in evidence as this may seem) then people should refrain from insulting their intelligence by watching this mindless drivel put together by some dopey college kid. He takes the littlest things that can’t necessarily be explained (in his view) and then makes the stupid leap and skips off on his trip through the Land of Oz to meet up with Dorothy and Toto for tea.

Originally Posted by Spilchy

It's utterly insane to believe otherwise. Or do folks just despise Bush so much that in just 6 months into his first term, you believe he plotted this?! The CIA? The NSA? The FBI? Congress? Or was it the various elements of the LAPD who had conspired to frame OJ Simpson? Thank goodness he was found innocent. I also heard "they" blew up the levies in New Orleans during Hurricaine Katrina.


Why don't you see this talked about anywhere in those settings? Because there's no truth to it. You think everyone is oblivious to this and somehow this video is the missing link? The Holy Grail?! The truth that explains 9/11?!

If so, it would NOT be relegated to some politcal agenda oriented Internet documentary put to the tune of some acid jazz DJ that is worshipped by conspirators.

Originally Posted by Scottwax

Are you sure your ultra-left wing professor's aren't having an undo influence on you?

Originally Posted by wlhump

These clowns will do anything for a story no matter the final impact.

Originally Posted by Pontman43

WOW, our government is out to kill us!!! I cant believe people would actually believe this, unless you smoke a whole lot of pot and believe every conspiracy theory around. (I have a friend like that, its funny listening to his reasoning)
I didn't watch the whole thing, but what was their reasoning for the government involvement?
And who are these people talking? How do we know that they aren't just the people who are making the conspiracy? I like the flying instructor who they dont prove was that guy's instructor or anything.
Go watch Farenhype 9/11

These were taken from just the first page of this thread.

One thing I have been coached on thru-n-thru in college is to leave emotion, opinions, and sarcasm at the door. Bringing these to the argument will only fuel the fire more (in a negative way) and weaken your message in the eyes of the spectators. For this thread, it has done just that.

Comments referring to the music in the documentary, tin hats, tin foil, insanity, etcetera have absolutely nothing to do with a "real" debate. They are just elements of how you let emotion get the best of you. Other than FalconGuy, I haven't seen anybody really try to justify how the documentary was "incorrect".

Regarding the post by Mosca, the only actual thing that is "fact" or "able to be proven true" is gravity; if you want to get scientific about it. Stepping aside from it in outer space, gravity is always constant. Everything else can be argued, hence what we are *trying* to do here.

[Spilchy]

I can't help but mock that. I think it only strengthens my argument because it shows the stupidity of those who believe it. I too spent 4 years in college as a double major with many graduate level courses in political theory, philosophy and the like under my belt. (Scottwax's response was spot on as far as I'm concerned because I lived through it). All our comments have everything to do with the "debate" because if this were brought up in any formal, respected, academic setting, those who believe this hog wash would be made fools of. It's utterly baseless because there is no evidence. It basically raising questions and then making assertions without proof.

You can raise the same questions and make the same assertions about whether or not the Holocaust ever happended. I've read some pretty heavy stuff found in similar settings as this dopey "documentary." Ofcourse it's nonsense. Or that Tom Cruise knows more about psychiatric medecine than those from Harvard or any medical board. Yeah, excercise and take vitamins and you'll cure one's mental ills. What a moron. But people believe that.

I'm sorry, but not everything can be argued, because I don't believe everything is relative.

I'm off to go see Syriana now

[BenP]

To be honest, conspiracy or not, nobody here can prove or disprove anything - you simply have to go with what your mind tells you, and so long as you state that as your OPINION and not FACT, then we'll all get along swimmingly.

I remember 9/11 well - I was on a boat in Dingle Bay, Ireland, looking for Funghi the dolphin, but that aside, there was one thing that always stood with me that day. When I saw the towers collapse, the first thing I said was - that's not possible.

I studied Real Estate at uni and we looked at building collapse, specifically disproportionate collapse, whereby the floors below are compromised resulting in the collapse of the floors above. Considering the height at which the impacts occurred, there's no way in a modern building that it would have caused the entire structure to collapse - not without any assistance anyway. Sure, all the floors above the impact will have collapsed and the force of them falling may have taken a few (maybe two or three) floors below out, but for them to take the entire building down (especially so soon after impact) - not a chance. The buildings had the strength to hold all these floors up for the 30 or so years before the impact - that impact and the resulting collapse of the upper floors would not cause the 90 or so floors below the impact to collapse like a pack of cards and in such a controlled manner. And don't come at me with all the "jet fuel melted the steel" arguments - for it to have collapsed diretly floor upon floor, it would have had to have melted the steel in the basements - and that's just not possible from where said fuel was deposited.

But anyway, that's my OPINION. At the end of the day what's happened has happened and if there is a conspiracy then we're in it just as much as you guys considering Blair is Bush's lap-dog...

Ben