Single stage vs. Base & clear

kaval · 03-29-09, 01:13

The car I drive (2000 Civic Sedan) needs a new hood and front bumper. I'm sourcing a urethane (no ABS this time) bumper and a Keystone Premium+ hood. The car will be seeing it's regular highway driving, and this season some track use, so I'm wondering if I should just go with single stage paint. The painter says there isn't really a difference, but I'd like some more feedback on this. Both paints will be coming from RM. Single stage will be $60, and Base/Clear $120. So, if I get the SS job (rest of the car is base & clear), is there going to be a significant difference in the way the paint looks (aside from the actual colour being 'fresher')? I'm not particularly picky about the car as long as it looks presentable. It will be receiving a full detail soon to rid of all the swirls and many years of my pre-autopian washes, lol.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is can you tell the difference (visually) between SS, and a base & clear paint job?

Here's a picture of the colour. When it's not clean, it just looks plum. But when it's cleaned up, the metallic flake really shines through.

Thanks in advance!

Kaval

Flashtime · 03-29-09, 01:37

If the painter is good - color blends well - then either is fine, really. Will he be
blending (painting) the fenders as well?

I would opt for base/clear since the rest of it is. I also paint and only use base/clear.
And to help with chip resistance, ask him to catalyze the base. And maybe one
epoxy sealer coat before the shooting bc/cc.

I'm not a fan of Keystone reconditioned bumpers or any other for that matter
as they tend to use cheaper primers. If you can, get aftermarket (made in China)
CAPA certified bumper and hood. It should be cheap and easier prep.

kaval · 03-29-09, 01:47

^Thanks for the reply! I will make sure to tell him about catalyzing the base. The fenders will not be blended, but I can ask him how much extra it will be. I've done a few favours for the shop, so they are shooting the paint for free, I just have to pay for it. I'm also sourcing a front lip for them to paint as well.

I opted for a new CAPA certified bumper rather than a Keystone reconditioned one. Is this what you're recommending?

I have a friend willing to give me an OEM hood for free, but it's Milano Red and has a slight ding on it. I'd prefer to use OEM parts but I'm not sure if it's worth the hassle of fixing it rather than getting a new one. I'll be keeping the current original hood for winter use.

Is there something in particular that's wrong with the Keystone Premium+ line of hoods? I will be rust proofing it as well.

wagonproject · 03-29-09, 01:48

Spend the extra and go BC/CC...

I've used Keystome, Certifit, etc. Its all aftermarket stuff. I don't like it but when the customer doesn't want to spend a lot of money then I got to like it, lol. They usually don' fit as nice, are thin steel and, and just require more work if you want it "perfect." If I can use OEM and only have to do a little repair work or whatever then I will do that first.

Flashtime · 03-29-09, 03:49

Quote:

I opted for a new CAPA certified bumper rather than a Keystone reconditioned one. Is this what you're recommending?

Yes.

Keystone is over priced. For aftermarket parts, there should be a few smaller
independent shops offering MUCH better prices for the same thing.

I do use aftermarket parts. Mainly for older vehicles and/or those with
a tight budget. They're not as good as OEM as wagonproject mentions, but
they certainly have their place. Especially bumper covers.

If the vehicle is newer and popular (Accords, Civcs, Camrys, etc.) the fitment,
even non Capa, tends to be decent.

Your bumper is around $45 and hood around $60 (shop price less 20% markup).
Don't quote me on this but i'm in the ballpark for my area.

Do you know what type of sealer he'll use before shooting the paint?
Epoxy would be nice but i doubt he'll use that (costly and slow).

Since the shops uses RM, which is excellent stuff, they'll hopefully prep
properly and use a decent sealer. Try to talk with the painter himself.
I would also tip him too.

*Ask for 3 coats of clear. You will likely want to sand it down and polish,

Flashtime · 03-29-09, 03:52

Here's one i did not too long ago: 1973 Datsun 240Z - Refinish Network - Refinish Network

And i spent around 5 hours sanding and polishing both panels.

0. Sand 1500 then 2000.
1. Mark V MV350 w/wool.
2. IP w/CCS white.
3. FPII w/CCS black.

kaval · 03-29-09, 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashtime

Yes.

Keystone is over priced. For aftermarket parts, there should be a few smaller
independent shops offering MUCH better prices for the same thing.

I do use aftermarket parts. Mainly for older vehicles and/or those with
a tight budget. They're not as good as OEM as wagonproject mentions, but
they certainly have their place. Especially bumper covers.

If the vehicle is newer and popular (Accords, Civcs, Camrys, etc.) the fitment,
even non Capa, tends to be decent.

Your bumper is around $45 and hood around $60 (shop price less 20% markup).
Don't quote me on this but i'm in the ballpark for my area.

Do you know what type of sealer he'll use before shooting the paint?
Epoxy would be nice but i doubt he'll use that (costly and slow).

Since the shops uses RM, which is excellent stuff, they'll hopefully prep
properly and use a decent sealer. Try to talk with the painter himself.
I would also tip him too.

Those prices you quoted are definitely higher than I'm paying. List price for the CAPA bumper was around 131CAD, which 105US, and after discount is 79CAD which is 64US.

The hood's list price is 230CAD, or 185USD (for the Platinum+).

I will find out what sealer he's using and ask him about prep. He did some work for me before which I wasn't too happy with, but he admitted that he rushed, so he knows what my expectations are this time around. In this time he's done some work for other people I know and it's been fine. I'm picking up the bumper and throwing it on the car right away without paint because my current one is in pieces. Once I decide what to do about the hood, I will be getting everything sprayed at once.

He repainted the bumper on my Mom's Odyssey with a 'chip resistant' clearcoat, and it held up reallllly well! Too bad some asshat backed into the bumper and now we need a new one, lol.

Thanks again for your replies!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flashtime

Here's one i did not too long ago: 1973 Datsun 240Z - Refinish Network - Refinish Network

That's came out great! Nice work!

wagonproject - I think I will end up going with base & clear, and have the fenders blended as well. It will cost me extra but not much.

Flashtime · 03-29-09, 04:10

I can explain production shop conditions, paint and why things are done the way
they are. But that's another forum.

Good luck! Again, remember to tip him!

OTG Signs · 03-29-09, 04:52

Base/Clear. Single is some NASTY stuff that is very bad for you (at least Imron is).

Accumulator · 03-29-09, 05:28

kaval- Much as I simply *LOVE* high-quality single stage, and especially my two cars with (factory) single stage metallic paint, I'd absolutely go with b/c for a metallic.

SS metallic is a pretty fragile paint and you can't do *NEARLY* the amount/degree of correction on it that you can on b/c.

SS metallics look cool IMO, but they're not fun to live with. Gee, sorta like [insert smart-aleck analogy here

]

wagonproject · 03-29-09, 06:29

Is this a friend or a shop doing the work also? The paint is only as good as the prep. No matter what paint you use. DuPont, Spies Hector, PPG, OMNI, Shopline, Nason, Sikkens, Sherwin Williams, Wwestern, Standox, ICI, Metal flake, SEM, Martin Senior, Crossfire, SPI, Nexa Autocolor, Valspar.....yeah Im bored and thats all I can think of now, lol.

Single stage is not for everyone to spray also, people thing it's easy but its not like spraying bc/cc which is cake. Also single stage cant hold a flame to BC/CC as far as durability and UV resistance goes.

If a panel is to be sprayed off a vehicle and its a metallic or pearl, it must be hung in a similar way that it would be on the vehicle, otherwise gravity plays with the flake and it will lay differently than if it were sprayed in normal position, and its noticeable.

I was told that with higher end single stages,the pigment actually settles and the resins rise to the top, but in all my years I have never put sand paper to a single stage and NOT had color come off immediately!

Accumulator · 03-30-09, 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by wagonproject

..I was told that with higher end single stages,the pigment actually settles and the resins rise to the top, but in all my years I have never put sand paper to a single stage and NOT had color come off immediately!

I've experience that first-hand on my '85 Jag and on a few older cars before that. And once you get down far enough that you're getting significant/rich transfer all the time you've pretty much hit the end of your polishing ability. After you're down into the "thick/dense part" of the paint it'll start getting all "blotchy" and will weather unevenly.

There are still a few areas on the XJS where I don't get pigment transfer. Had I not got some transfer during that car's first polishing (the day I brought it home from the showroom) I might've thought it was one of those newfangled b/c paints.

And you're not kidding about the difficulty in respraying that stuff! My painter finally found *one* quart of the proper paint and so I could finally have some spots on my Jag done...his ability to match everything up right (let alone given the age of the car) proved once and for all that I've finally found *THE* painter for my cars. Heh heh, I waited so long to find a good painter that we couldn't find enough of the right paint any more