UAW refuses pay cut

[RedlineIRL]

What I want to know is what exactly was proposed. Was it reducing wages for all workers or current workers? The UAW has already said it was going to do away with the jobs bank if it got the money, which would save a lot. Where do these people get they need to make their wages more competitve with foreign auto manufacturers? They are not paid much higher at all. In fact, new GM employees make $14.50 with no benefits, while the honda plant in Indiana started their workers at over $18 an hour.


Either was, like the article mentioned, it's just a bunch of southern hicks who want to eliminate the unions. It's pathetic when a coulple of hillbilly politicans can't see the big picture here. Coker is a piece of crap, that's all I can say about this guy. He sold out his state and the US, even though there is a GM plant in his state that employs over 5000 people. Not to mention there are many suppliers to GM in the surrounding areas of this plant. Yet this sleezeball worked to get hundreds of billions in tax breaks and other incentives to draw volkswagen into his hometown to build a plant, even though this plant is not going to employ even half of what the GM plant employs. Damn I hate southern republicans.

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by RedlineIRL

What I want to know is what exactly was proposed. Was it reducing wages for all workers or current workers? The UAW has already said it was going to do away with the jobs bank if it got the money, which would save a lot. Where do these people get they need to make their wages more competitve with foreign auto manufacturers? They are not paid much higher at all. In fact, new GM employees make $14.50 with no benefits, while the honda plant in Indiana started their workers at over $18 an hour.


Either was, like the article mentioned, it's just a bunch of southern hicks who want to eliminate the unions. It's pathetic when a coulple of hillbilly politicans can't see the big picture here. Coker is a piece of crap, that's all I can say about this guy. He sold out his state and the US, even though there is a GM plant in his state that employs over 5000 people. Not to mention there are many suppliers to GM in the surrounding areas of this plant. Yet this sleezeball worked to get hundreds of billions in tax breaks and other incentives to draw volkswagen into his hometown to build a plant, even though this plant is not going to employ even half of what the GM plant employs. Damn I hate southern republicans.

The $14 an hour figure does not take effect for new hires until 2011. You and many others parrot that line like it's a current fact. Yet this is not the issue as few if any new employees are being hired or likely will be in the near term.

The big issue is the cost of labor. That is not to say the salary is much different but that the benefits are much higher. When you look at the cost of labor as the defining number you see that the big three labor costs $70/hour while the transplants labor cost is $48/ hour. Looking at the difference this labor cost makes accounts for the fact that in 2007 the big three lost on average $2,000 for every car sold while the transplants made $1,500 on every car sold.

The idea of asking for a bailout and not be willing to make the sacrifices needed to bring profitability to the company is ludicrous. Simply put it is absurd. Try going to a bank and dictating that they give you a loan and show them that you will have no possible means to repay it, you have no plan to become profitable and see what their decision will be. If the big three had any demonstrable means of paying back a loan they would not need to ask the government for the money they would be able to get it from the private sector.

No one wants to see the industry fail. The only way they can become viable is to reduce their cost of labor, plain and simple. The UAW wants to start sucking on the teat of the us government. Looks like Bushey will give them that teat to suckle on so nothing will get fixed with the company. Plan on repeated bailouts for the big three. Other companies and even state governments are already lining up for some of the governments "free" money. Hope you have deep pockets as you will be giving them this "free" money.

Good read: Big Three bailout: Government should act like a banker - Oregon Opinion Articles, Political Blogs & Views | The Stump – OregonLive.com

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

The UAW rejected moving concessions that were scheduled to go into effect in 2011 back to 2010. They rejected this deal for one stinking year. The lower starting salary mentioned earlier was to go into effect in 2011, BTW. Congress wanted some stake in this from the UAW as well as the company and the UAW refused to budge.

I pin this failure on UAW inflexibility. This just changed my opinion that bankruptcy is now the ONLY viable option.

Actually this is absolutely not true. What it came down to was one major thing. When you're talking about bringing down the UAW wages down to parity with the transplants, exactly what is parity? Don't give an opinion. Exactly what is parity with the transplants, because there is no clear answer on that. The critics, including many of you, will post back the figures thrown around by the media without any of them, or any of you knowing, that those figures are estimated averages, and that no two transplants assembly plants pay the same pay. How Honda structures it's pay in Marysville, OH is different from what they pay in Lincoln, AL, and now in Indiana. Toyota is the same way - how they pay in Georgetown, KY is different from how they pay in San Antonio, TX. If you go to the transplants web, you'll also see that each plant they have in the USA is incorporated as a separate business entity from the others. Nissan is the same way. In turn, how Toyota structures it's pay is different from Honda, and from Nissan, and the same applies from each of them to the others.

What the UAW would not do is commit to both an arbitrary deadline and arbitrary wage figures with factual information. Because GM and Ford are publicly held companies, the UAW contracts are public knowledge. The actually wages of the transplants are not, and the UAW wanted to have independent auditors obtain the factual information from each of the Japanese transplants.

The GOP balked on that. That's where the breakdown came in. It was an arbitrary deadline coupled with unverifiable arbitrary wage criteria to be ordered to meet.

[Len_A]

From: Big 3 rescue wins rivals' support | detnews.com | The Detroit News

"Executives at the Japanese manufacturers have been surprised to hear lawmakers assert that their workers earn far less than workers employed by Detroit's automakers. One executive who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed UAW President Ron Gettelfinger's remarks Friday that team members, or line workers, at Toyota's largest North American assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky., earned more than the average UAW worker."

[Cleaning Fool]

I've been with Fed Ex 15 years. If we were union we would have gone under a long time time ago

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Cleaning Fool

I've been with Fed Ex 15 years. If we were union we would have gone under a long time time ago

Really? It that why UPS is still around? I see more UPS deliveries in my area than FedEx. That anti-union nonsense is so full of crap.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

The $14 an hour figure does not take effect for new hires until 2011. You and many others parrot that line like it's a current fact. Yet this is not the issue as few if any new employees are being hired or likely will be in the near term.

The big issue is the cost of labor. That is not to say the salary is much different but that the benefits are much higher. When you look at the cost of labor as the defining number you see that the big three labor costs $70/hour while the transplants labor cost is $48/ hour. Looking at the difference this labor cost makes accounts for the fact that in 2007 the big three lost on average $2,000 for every car sold while the transplants made $1,500 on every car sold.

The idea of asking for a bailout and not be willing to make the sacrifices needed to bring profitability to the company is ludicrous. Simply put it is absurd. Try going to a bank and dictating that they give you a loan and show them that you will have no possible means to repay it, you have no plan to become profitable and see what their decision will be. If the big three had any demonstrable means of paying back a loan they would not need to ask the government for the money they would be able to get it from the private sector.

No one wants to see the industry fail. The only way they can become viable is to reduce their cost of labor, plain and simple. The UAW wants to start sucking on the teat of the us government. Looks like Bushey will give them that teat to suckle on so nothing will get fixed with the company. Plan on repeated bailouts for the big three. Other companies and even state governments are already lining up for some of the governments "free" money. Hope you have deep pockets as you will be giving them this "free" money.

Good read: Big Three bailout: Government should act like a banker - Oregon Opinion Articles, Political Blogs & Views | The Stump – OregonLive.com

There's about 3500 new hires in the Detroit area, at GM, that are on the $14 an hour starting wage. Problem is that they will be among the first on indefinite layoff if car sales stay this slow.

But no one is being a parrot in reporting those starting wages, and you're letting your anger, which was manipulated by misreporting by most of the media, cloud your judgment. The fact is that last years round of buyouts created some openings which were starting to be filled at the second wage tier. The fact is that except for Hyundai, all the transplants pay at or above UAW/Big Three top tier wage scales, and the second wage tier at the Big Three is more competitive than the transplants.

Consider:

One, from: Big 3 rescue wins rivals' support | detnews.com | The Detroit News

"Executives at the Japanese manufacturers have been surprised to hear lawmakers assert that their workers earn far less than workers employed by Detroit's automakers. One executive who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed UAW President Ron Gettelfinger's remarks Friday that team members, or line workers, at Toyota's largest North American assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky., earned more than the average UAW worker."


Two, from:
Toyota workers in Kentucky plant made more than UAW members last year - Autoblog

"Last year was the first time that non-unionized workers at a foreign-owned assembly plant made more than members of the United Auto Workers union make on average in a year. The Detroit Free Press reveals in a very interesting article that Toyota paid out bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000 last year at its largest U.S. plant in Georgetown, KY. Combined with the base pay made by a non-union worker at the plant, that equates to $30/hour or $60,000/year based on a 2,000-hour work year. That is more than the $27/hour or $54,000 a UAW member made on average last year."

TM Archives: Toyota sweats U.S. labor costs: INTERNAL REPORT: Slow the pay growth by 2011

"Toyota Motor Corp. must hold down growth of its U.S. manufacturing wages and benefits, which are among the highest in the auto industry and are growing faster than the company's profit margin, according to a high-level company report obtained by the Free Press.

The report from Seiichi (Sean) Sudo, president of Toyota Engineering & Manufacturing in North America, said Toyota should strive to align hourly wages more closely with prevailing manufacturing pay in the state where each plant is located, "and not tie ourselves so closely to the U.S. auto industry, or other competitors."

[Cleaning Fool]

Originally Posted by Len_A

Really? It that why UPS is still around? I see more UPS deliveries in my area than FedEx. That anti-union nonsense is so full of crap.

UPS has alot more cash flow than Fed Ex, UPS has been around alot longer than Fed Ex. Fed Ex target market the first 25 years of existence was next day delivery, UPS target was ground, similar but very different to Fed Ex.UPS is 5 times the size of Fed Ex, so Yes, you will see more UPS trucks than Fed Ex, bigger company and has dominated the ground market for a long time. Its funny because I was sitting at a loading dock the other day, UPS pulls up and there is a package waiting for him. "I can't lift that box by myself, its not in our contract." So the shipper walked over and put it in his truck and laughed and shook his head in disgust as he walked away. Not to steotype UPS as bad, but there are no doubt those who pull the "contract" card everychance they get

[dogma]

Not sure how I feel about this because of how many other companies would be effected. What was on one of the news shows said GM workers get 44 and hr and 73 total the Japanese companies here in the US get 28 he and 44 total and arguably make a better product. There is no need for unions anymore. The worse part is the unions need this bail out because the need to pay the ex workers benefits for life. They also said that the laid off GM worker gets $50.000 a year from the unions. There is no need for this. The unions are running this country into the ground. I feel they auto workers deserve a fair wage ,but not what they are getting and certainly not befefits for life. I say let them go bankrupt and dissovle the unions and get back to making a good product that people can afford.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by dogma

Not sure how I feel about this because of how many other companies would be effected. What was on one of the news shows said GM workers get 44 and hr and 73 total the Japanese companies here in the US get 28 he and 44 total and arguably make a better product. There is no need for unions anymore. The worse part is the unions need this bail out because the need to pay the ex workers benefits for life. They also said that the laid off GM worker gets $50.000 a year from the unions. There is no need for this. The unions are running this country into the ground. I feel they auto workers deserve a fair wage ,but not what they are getting and certainly not befefits for life. I say let them go bankrupt and dissovle the unions and get back to making a good product that people can afford.

" laid off GM worker gets $50.000 a year from the unions" False - more anti-union, anti-Detroit rumors spread to rile people up.

Pension benefits for life? Sure. Same with most federal, state, and municipal employees. Pension benefits for life used to be far more commonplace, almost 70% of the work force in the 1960's. The wage figures you quoted for GM are wrong. Go back and read the articles I posted links to. You even have management for the transplants contradicting the "transplants pay less" bull sh*t. Transplants don't have legacy costs because they've only been around, except for TWO plants, for less than fifteen years.

I'll also go so far as to make this pointed and tell you bankruptcy advocates to go look up the bankruptcy laws. Chapter 11 does NOT decertify the unions. Legally, only the union members can decertify the unions. Under Chapter 11 they may have to negotiate pay and benefit cuts, or risk having them imposed by the bankruptcy judge (highly unlikely - see what happened at Delphi - judge refused to do that), but a company in Chapter 11 must have an exit date and after that, it's business as usual. Union will still be around, management will still negotiate with them.

[billium]

My union experience is limited to two close friends who were once union, now are not. Both are still steamfitters, but neither is in a union shop. The biggest complaint I hear from both regarding unions is politics and lack of efficiency.

I own my own business. As such, I have more in common with Scottwax then Len A.

Here is my proposal for the UAW. Each of your members take a significant pay/benefit cut immediately so as to come in line with profitable auto manufacturers. Additionally, each member immediately buys common stock in their employer equal to one half of their current retirement benefits (what's known as "skin in the game" where I come from). In return for your vote of confidence and cash investments, my tax dollars go to "loan" your industry money (the biggest sub-prime loans that I can imagine). A portion of any future raises will be in the form of stock, which you can sell on the open market after a couple year lock-up period. The UAW interest becomes long term viability, not short term management concessions. I know it's overly simplistic, but you get the jist.

My proposal for Detroit management: immediate and very public pink slips. Loss of any accumulated stock options/bonus. You lead from the front, gentlemen. You are done.

Have at it, Len.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by billium

My union experience is limited to two close friends who were once union, now are not. Both are still steamfitters, but neither is in a union shop. The biggest complaint I hear from both regarding unions is politics and lack of efficiency.

I own my own business. As such, I have more in common with Scottwax then Len A.

Here is my proposal for the UAW. Each of your members take a significant pay/benefit cut immediately so as to come in line with profitable auto manufacturers. Additionally, each member immediately buys common stock in their employer equal to one half of their current retirement benefits (what's known as "skin in the game" where I come from). In return for your vote of confidence and cash investments, my tax dollars go to "loan" your industry money (the biggest sub-prime loans that I can imagine). A portion of any future raises will be in the form of stock, which you can sell on the open market after a couple year lock-up period. The UAW interest becomes long term viability, not short term management concessions. I know it's overly simplistic, but you get the jist.

My proposal for Detroit management: immediate and very public pink slips. Loss of any accumulated stock options/bonus. You lead from the front, gentlemen. You are done.

Have at it, Len.

In addition to their pension, there is a 401K for the hourly employees with all three Detroit automakers, that has no employer match (tthat's been reserved for salaried employees). Every hourly employee in my extended family, from my retired hourly father to my cousins & aunts and uncles, all bought their respective automaker's common stock. I'd be surprised if most of teh UAW members don't already have "skin in the game".

If what even transplant execs are telling the press is correct, per my previous posts, then there would be no pay or benefit cut, because there's already near parity - in fact, some transplants pay more than the UAW. The hard part is the existing employees covered by a defined benefit pension. Legally, converting that to a 401K is at best legally difficult, and in the real world just about impossible. And BTW, I am all in favor of changing the law to make easier to convert the defined benefit pension to a defined contribution one, so an employee could leave it to all of his family, rather than give up a small amount of the monthly pension to "insure" it to leave a smaller payment to the surviving spouse.

That said, it will never happen, because in 1998 or 1999, the law was changed to make converting defined contribution pension harder, because of the older workers at companies like IBM that got screwed when their defined benefit pensions were converted to cash balance plans. Now the law states that any conversion must guarantee the level of benefits earned at the time of conversion.

And using a Chapter 11 filing to dump the pension in the lap of the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corporation is just sticking the tax payer with the bill anyway.