So why is GM going down?

[Len_A]

Tennessee Senator Bob Corker was one of the senators last week that was not only grilling the hell out of the Big Three execs, but also raising all kinds of objections to the very idea of public money being used to help GM, Ford, and Chrysler.

I don't know if any of you know this, but Volkswagen is going to build an assembly plant in Corker's home state of Tennessee. They won over Alabama and Michigan. VW's North American headquarters used to be in the Detroit suburb of Troy, MI, and we're losing that too.

The price tag, of tax payer money, for incentives for one auto assembly plant: $577.4 million. See:

Local News: $577 Million Lured Volkswagen | plant, million, incentives - Local News - WTVC Newschannel9.com

and

Tennessee’s incentives package offered for Volkswagen plant totals $577 million

For 2000 direct auto assembly plants, and just under 9800 related supplier jobs. Over a half a billion dollars.

All of you know that I've b*tched about the idea of tax payer incentives for foreign owned auto plants while most people, including many in the House and Senate, rail against loans,not a gift to the Big Three.

Well, did you people know who owns 20% of Volkswagen? The German state of Lower Saxony. The Ticker - How VW Became the World's Biggest Company -- For Five Minutes - Economy Watch *

Am I the only person who see the inequity of giving over $577 million of the tax payers money to a company that is not only foreign owned, in a country where the government pays the company's health care costs, but is also partially owned by a foreign government entity?

Or is it just me that sees this as a problem in this debate?

The whole idea of all these transplant auto plants getting nine figure incentives to come build a plant muddies the waters more than a little bit, when you start arguing that the transplants are more profitable than the Big Three plants. VW is going to build a Passat size car, designed just for North America, in that plant.

Or, again, is it just me seeing that?

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by Len_A

I find the harsh attitudes toward blue collar manufacturing workers, especially auto workers, truly offensive. Unless you've either actually done the work, or been in a physical position to observe the work being performed (both of which I've done), you really don't understand the how hard the work is. This is work where most of the jobs send you home feeling physically whipped at the end of the day, sometimes to the point of being sore every day. Repetitive motion injury is widely prevalent, even in the Japanese owned transplants, and I know for a fact that the transplants bust their butts to try minimize repetitive motion injury. It's still as prevalent as the domestic plants, because that's the nature of mass production that involves human labor.

I,for one, will never let my disagreements with the car makers or the unions diminish my respect for the very hard working people of all of the auto industry, domestic and transplant, union and non union.

Well said, Len.

Every worker in a company, from the janitor to the CEO should be proud of their performance and what they are accomplishing. They are, or should be, considered a vital piece of the company's success. Sure, there are exceptions but like you, I've always had a good deal of respect for those who work hard and carve out a decent living for themselves and their family.

Sadly, economic conditions cause hardships for many at all levels. Success often depends on who you know, as well as your education and job performance. It also often depends on timing and luck.

I wish all the auto industry workers and those tied to them, good luck and success in this grim time. To succeed in these conditions requires maintaining a positive attitude and an aggressive approach to job hunting. I went through a similar experience and now, years later, I can look back and honestly say I am much better off for the experience, both financially and mentally.

To all those who are feeling depressed and under extreme pressure, force yourself to stay positive and seek out all possibilities. Look to friends and relatives to help you network and keep your spirits up. You can survive this stronger and wiser.

[finalfinish]

Originally Posted by rjstaaf

Personally I think this is the primary reason

How does an X5 fit into this thread???





Just kidding!

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

Well said, Len.

Every worker in a company, from the janitor to the CEO should be proud of their performance and what they are accomplishing. They are, or should be, considered a vital piece of the company's success. Sure, there are exceptions but like you, I've always had a good deal of respect for those who work hard and carve out a decent living for themselves and their family.

Sadly, economic conditions cause hardships for many at all levels. Success often depends on who you know, as well as your education and job performance. It also often depends on timing and luck.

I wish all the auto industry workers and those tied to them, good luck and success in this grim time. To succeed in these conditions requires maintaining a positive attitude and an aggressive approach to job hunting. I went through a similar experience and now, years later, I can look back and honestly say I am much better off for the experience, both financially and mentally.

To all those who are feeling depressed and under extreme pressure, force yourself to stay positive and seek out all possibilities. Look to friends and relatives to help you network and keep your spirits up. You can survive this stronger and wiser.

Thanks Jim. I get as mad as anyone else at unexpected quality problems on my cars, but the last thing I ever want to do is take it out on people who built them. They're just doing their jobs as the jobs were designed, and even the best car companies out there have had situations where production needs of building the cars pushed the workers harder than anyone originally planned. My father retired from Ford as an hourly employee, and it's frustrating as can be to have serious problems with any of the many Ford's I've owned. That said, my latest Ford product, a 2005 Mercury Montego with all wheel drive is the first car I've ever owned that got better mileage than it was rated at, and so far has been a great ownership experience.

This economy, to put it in the most academic terms, just really sucks. As much as those of us in Michigan have been living through an eight year recession, seeing over a half a million people lose their jobs last month was a bit overwhelming. Even the service sector is taking really hard hits now. Hell, I've been out of work so long, I went to my closest shopping mall to sign up for Christmas retail help - notice that I'm still out of work - ho, ho, ho. Blah. Except for Black Friday weekend, it looks around here like retail sales are here are down.

I'm hoping these government loans for the Detroit automakers happen. I don't think the national economy can afford more months of half million job losses. I'm not sure I like all the conditions the politicians want to put on them, but it's to be expected.

[finalfinish]

LEN_A : Kisber said the planned VW plant and its 2,000 jobs are only part of the projected financial return. A study by the University of Tennessee’s Center for Business and Economic Research predicts 11,477 jobs — including construction and suppliers — will be created in the region that also includes northwest Georgia and northeast Alabama.
Kisber said the study shows that on a cash-flow basis, for every dollar that state and local governments spend on a one-time basis for the VW project — $229.7 million state and $86.2 million local — both state and local government coffers will get $1 in new tax revenues annually for 30 years.
Kisber said that means a net cash benefit of $526.9 million for the state and $557 million for local government.

I don't personally like the fact that Germans, Japanese, and Koreans sell great cars in the U.S., but there is this thing called free trade that most Americans are too stupid to pick up on including the people running the big 3. Simply put, if your car company sucks, ( and in my opinion all of the big three do ), then the process of natural selection will force it to go under. The sooner the better I hope. America needs room for new intelligent transportation companies to come in and benefit the country. The stagnant, useless big 3 can't keep up. This is a natural process. If the retards at GM, Ford, and Chrysler actually cared ( which they can't due to many reasons including idiotic labor unions, pain in the butt dealers, stagnant R&D huge salaries not enforcing promotion of intellectual growth of the huge companies ) they would realize any good car company can go all around the world selling good cars making profits. They don't do this, and I don't expect to ever see these companies do this so it wouldn't bother me at all if they dropped of the face of the planet. It just leaves me room to start my car company, which I would bet my life that I could run better than any of the big 3 run their companies. Idiots. By the way, you can go buy a Hummer H3, a Colorado, a Buick, an Isuzu, and a Trailblazer, and they are all the same thing. What kind of idiot would let something like that happen. It should be illegal to have a car company in my country to be doing something so embarrasing. They piss me off, I hope they go under and get their ugly cars, dealers, and junk out of my face and let new intelligent minds get to work.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by finalfinish

LEN_A : Kisber said the planned VW plant and its 2,000 jobs are only part of the projected financial return. A study by the University of Tennessee’s Center for Business and Economic Research predicts 11,477 jobs — including construction and suppliers — will be created in the region that also includes northwest Georgia and northeast Alabama.
Kisber said the study shows that on a cash-flow basis, for every dollar that state and local governments spend on a one-time basis for the VW project — $229.7 million state and $86.2 million local — both state and local government coffers will get $1 in new tax revenues annually for 30 years.
Kisber said that means a net cash benefit of $526.9 million for the state and $557 million for local government.

Regardless of the benefits for the area, it's still government support for a foreign manufacturer, who is partially owned by a foreign government entity. And the nation foreign government pays handsomely for that manufacturers home country's workers health and retirement benefits.

Yes, I understand that your area of the country will benefit - at further expense to my area of the country. GM, Ford, and Chrysler get lambasted for reluctantly asking for government loans (and now the government wants to micromanage the Big Three in return for the loans - great), people harp about how the free market should rule, and letting companies fail is OK, etc. But it's OK to get a profitable foreign company over a half a billion dollars of tax payer money? To build another assembly plant when, at even last years sales level there's too much manufacturing capacity in North America. The excess capacity has to come out of Detroit's hide when we still sell half the cars this country buys, and build 70% of what gets sold? And supply more than 90% of all the government fleet vehicles.

The Detroit auto companies never got that kind of incentives for a new plant, and they've had more than a half a dozen new plants replacing old ones. Let the foreign automakers pay their own way, especially since their home countries provide so much on-going support to these companies. Level play field and free market my @ss.

From Dan Neil's LA Times editorial: Nationalize GM - Los Angeles Times

GM is competing with companies that are quasi-national now. If you consider the advantages the government of Japan has bestowed on Toyota, Nissan and Honda -- in terms of healthcare and retirement benefits for its employees -- the unevenness of the field is clear. The same goes for most European companies, and the rising rivals in China will enjoy similar state-subsidized advantages.

[finalfinish]

I edited my post above, I added some nice pissed off rambling to it. I really think the big 3 could have easily avoided this trouble. Actually, Ford did. I also think these companies aren't really competent enough to realize how a global economy works and how to make their companies fit in with an economy that is changing. It isn't really a hard concept to grasp, and if they can't deal with it (which they have proved they cant) then nobody should help them. Toyota, Mercedes, VW, Nissan, and many other companies don't have problems moving into America. The big 3 just aren't competent enough to adjust, so why support these companies with retards and unions at the helm. All of this pisses me off, I am just going to go polish my snowboard to forget about it.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by finalfinish

I edited my post above, I added some nice pissed off rambling to it. I really think the big 3 could have easily avoided this trouble. Actually, Ford did. I also think these companies aren't really competent enough to realize how a global economy works and how to make their companies fit in with an economy that is changing. It isn't really a hard concept to grasp, and if they can't deal with it (which they have proved they cant) then nobody should help them. Toyota, Mercedes, VW, Nissan, and many other companies don't have problems moving into America. The big 3 just aren't competent enough to adjust, so why support these companies with retards and unions at the helm. All of this pisses me off, I am just going to go polish my snowboard to forget about it.

What free trade? You mentioned every foreign automaker that has government paid health care and government subsidized retirement plans. Just where did you think these companies got the R &D money to improve their product. FYI - GM is the largest private purchaser of health insurance in this country. Think about it. Only larger purchaser of health insurance in the USA is the Federal Government. Again, I ask, where the heck do you think these companies you mentioned got the huge R &D budgets from?

BTW, Toyota and Lexus , Nissan and Infiniti, and Honda and Acura all share many platforms.

Enjoy polishing your snowboard. Hope it's cathartic.

[ramtough]

Originally Posted by ianitrix

Wow I love when people such as yourself makes comments like this. I would love for you to come to work with me and see how hard it is. This comment is very rude and offense. Did you know that toyota and honda pays the workers the same amount?? Im sure we could sit here and say this guy shouldnt be making this and so on. Do professional sports deserve to make millions a year?? Im sure whatever you do for a living you are getting over paid for.

Dude I am a landscaper I make about $14 an hr. how about you what do you make an hr.You tell me about hard work. GO get your tea now and tell me why any of the junk the big three sell. Cost for new F250 $35000 to $40000. Dodge $30000 to $40000 and Chevy $30000 to $40000. T ell me about change my 78 f250 4x4 gets better mileage than any of my company trucks. Company trucks are 2002 or newer. Check yourselves find a old dealer sticker compare to new. Then you tell me who is full of ****. LEN A.Don't forget to pay your union dues. ****** cars ****** unions have a nice day off.

[finalfinish]

This is a great thread!

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by ramtough

Dude I am a landscaper I make about $14 an hr. how about you what do you make an hr.You tell me about hard work. GO get your tea now and tell me why any of the junk the big three sell. Cost for new F250 $35000 to $40000. Dodge $30000 to $40000 and Chevy $30000 to $40000. T ell me about change my 78 f250 4x4 gets better mileage than any of my company trucks. Company trucks are 2002 or newer. Check yourselves find a old dealer sticker compare to new. Then you tell me who is full of ****. LEN A.Don't forget to pay your union dues. ****** cars ****** unions have a nice day off.

ramtough, telling me to go pay my union dues is not an insult, not that I've been in a union for thirty years.

At $14 an hour, for what you do as a landscaper, you are underpaid. I have no doubt about that, and it is hard, physical work. I don't recall anyone saying it isn't. But I have done landscaping,and I have done automotive factory work and if I have my choice, all things being equal, I'll take the landscaping work hands down. As physically hard as your work is, at least some of the time the work lets escape the mind numbing repetition of mass production.

No one is denigrating your hard work.

If you think the Big Three's pick ups are crap, go price the Nissan and Toyota's. But in the case of the Nissan, don't wait too long - they switch in 2011 to a Chrysler built, Nissan badged pickup truck. That's right -they're already giving up on designing and building their own 1/4 ton truck. Go figure. And in the case of Toyota's - it's not as durable as people except from Toyota.

5.7L Camshaft Failures
Electrical problems
Radio problem

Highway Bed Bounce

YouTube - Tundra Vibration (NOT BED BOUNCE)

[jfelbab]

Len, a question... You mentioned the Big 3 have built new plants in MI and didn't get any tax incentives to build there. Why is that? If MI was not willing to encourage the plant be built there, why didn't the manufacturer look to other more willing states? I believe they could have gotten the same incentives that the foreign nameplates got if they had opted to move.

I see this is another in a string of bad decision by the company leadership, but I am not an expert on new state-of-the-art auto plants.

Every time I look at what is happening I come back to this problem being caused by terrible mismanagement at the top. I think that the current leaders and boards need to be removed. I believe it is time for new ideas and new leadership. I think this is the last opportunity for that to occur for the big 3. What is your view?