So why is GM going down?

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by FlowRate

My dad keeps telling us about how his uncles worked for GM and got 2 months of vacation + $40/hour to sit and watch a machine. It's simply not sustainable business practice when you're also producing what is widely regarded as an inferior product.

Maybe this is part of the problem, perceptions created through heresay. I'm no fan of unions (and I have worked in/with plenty). I'm sure the UAW has plenty of cushy jobs and generous work rules but thinking that a car gets built by people "sitting and watching" reminds me of high school and the kid who wanted to be a neurosurgeon because his uncle was one and all he did was sit in his office an look at X-rays and make big bucks. I pointed out that his uncle had to go to med school, intern, and work for many years to have the knowledge, experience, and expertise to just "sit in his office".

Also reminds me of the joke about the business owner whose machine breaks down. He calls the repairman, who comes in, looks the machine up and down, strokes his chin, opens his tool bag, takes out a hammer, and bangs the side of the machine, which then starts up and runs perfectly. He then hands a bill to the owner for $500. The owner, outraged, yells "would you care to itemize that for me!?". And the repairman says "sure", takes the bill back, and writes "Banging on machine: $2. Knowing where to bang: $498.

Perhaps those guys who just "got to sit and watch a machine" had worked for years to become expert machinists, and who now monitored a high production machine where their expertise is used to listen to the sounds of the cutting tool etc. to make sure the machine is operating properly, and fix it if it isn't.

[Cleaning Fool]

Anybody drive the GMC Canyon or Colorado pick up? Pretty much an embarassment. I mean, is this all the better they could do? Are you kidding me! Unrefined, loud and poor engineering. And they wonder why they are in trouble.

[wfedwar]

Epiphany

lp.org

[jcandiman]

car making in the US has become a bean counter's business. in the last 10 years GM has paid $153billion to fund pensions and make direct pension payments. this, of course, is their obligation by way of agreements made with the UAW, but has nothing to do with how a car goes, stops or handles.

[jfelbab]

Putting aside for the moment the fact that the Big 3 labor cost is nearly double that of the transplant companies, there is the fact that GM routinely pays people, thousands of people, to report to work and play cards and read magazines all day. It's called the Jobs Bank Program.
Big Three Bailout? Not So Fast, Declan McCullagh Says A Better Solution Is To Let The Automakers Declare Bankruptcy - CBS News

Back on profitability, here is a clear graphic of the main players. The Big 3 are loosing money on every vehicle they sell. This is not due to the recent financial crisis as it represents 2007 year data.
Detroit: Same Old, Same Old - Jim Manzi - The Corner on National Review Online

There are around 7,600 GM dealers in the US and 1,700 Toyota dealers. One would think this might be a red flag to a CEO that maybe something is amiss.

The problem for GM is not new. One only has to look at the company's performance over past years to see that they have been in decline, both in terms of market share and in terms of stock value. This problem lies squarely at the feet of their management.

Look at the Market performance of GM compared to the DOW.
http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=...%5EDJI&a=v&p=s

Now one would expect in looking at that performance that the CEO would be deprived of salary increases or maybe even be fired. Nope, Wagoneer had his compansation increased by 64% from 2006 to 2007.

Chrysler is another case. Bought by Dalmer and then by Cerberus who owns 51% of Chrysler now. When questioned about the resources of Cerberus, they stated to congress that they had enough cash to bail out Chrysler without government funds but they would not put another penny into the carmaker. They want our taxpayer money for their private company. Why spend your own money when you can suckle at the teat of the US taxpayer.

The bottom line is that the Big three are not making the kind of vehicles many Americans want to own. They are first to brag that they have made strides in initial quality but they don't talk about reliability, residual value or cost of ownership comparisons. There is the fly in their ointment.

Dependability-ratings-by-brand
Ratings | J.D. Power

Quality-ratings-by-brand
Ratings | J.D. Power

Performance-and-design-ratings-by-brand
Ratings | J.D. Power

Most dependable manufacturers list from Cars.com
Most Dependable Manufacturers - Cars.com

Best resale value list from Cars.com
Best Car Resale Values by Class - Cars.com

Is there anyone here who thinks that a Chevy will cost them less to own than a Honda or a Toyota over say 5 or 10 years? If there is, you are in the minority. So given you are about to make a very large investment in an asset that depreciates rapidly, what would you buy? You can see what most Americans are choosing.

You need to ask of the Detroit 3, are these companies viable in the long term? I could see a short term bailout if the companies had some liklihood that they could be well run and be competitive in the long term. Sadly, I just don't see that. I see greedy CEO's and out of touch board members as vampires sucking the last drops of blood from three dying corpses.

Tragically, this is going to be extremely painful for many of us. The loss of jobs, both direct and collateral will number in the millions which will most surely drive us into a depression. Yet can we in good conscience, continue to throw our children's money at a problem that is beyond a cash only resolution.

Our government has spent $8.5 Trillion on bailouts. That's T as in followed by 12 zeros. $8,500,000,000,000.

Lets just look at a trillion to put things in perspective for a moment.

1 Trillion seconds = 31,546 years

Assume for a moment that we could pay off this debt at the rate of a dollar a second. Our $8.5 Trillion in bailout debt would take 268,141 years to pay off. Assuming, of course, that there is no interest accumulating on that debt and that we immediately stop borrowing on our children's future.

Time our congress stops this madness. Yet the line of people asking congress for bailouts is stretching all the way across this country. Many states governments are now asking for their handouts. The airplane manufacturers, boat builders, farmers, ethanol makers, railroads, the list keeps growing. They all want some free money. Well there is no free money.

[ianitrix]

Originally Posted by ramtough

Union is part of the problem. Somebody making $28 to$30 an hr. for for screwing in a bolt or gluing weatherstipping on is rediculouis. The union made GM,DODGE AND FORD charge $30,000 to $40,000 for a car that should cost $15,,000 to $ 20,000.

Wow I love when people such as yourself makes comments like this. I would love for you to come to work with me and see how hard it is. This comment is very rude and offense. Did you know that toyota and honda pays the workers the same amount?? Im sure we could sit here and say this guy shouldnt be making this and so on. Do professional sports deserve to make millions a year?? Im sure whatever you do for a living you are getting over paid for.

[ZaneO]

Originally Posted by ianitrix

I would love for you to come to work with me and see how hard it is. This comment is very rude and offense.

So what exactly do you do?

[Cleaning Fool]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

Putting aside for the moment the fact that the Big 3 labor cost is nearly double that of the transplant companies, there is the fact that GM routinely pays people, thousands of people, to report to work and play cards and read magazines all day. It's called the Jobs Bank Program.
Big Three Bailout? Not So Fast, Declan McCullagh Says A Better Solution Is To Let The Automakers Declare Bankruptcy - CBS News

Back on profitability, here is a clear graphic of the main players. The Big 3 are loosing money on every vehicle they sell. This is not due to the recent financial crisis as it represents 2007 year data.
Detroit: Same Old, Same Old - Jim Manzi - The Corner on National Review Online

There are around 20,000 GM dealers in the US and 2,000 Toyota dealers. One would think this might be a red flag to a CEO that maybe something is amiss.

The problem for GM is not new. One only has to look at the companies performance over past years to see that they have been in decline, both in terms of market share and in terms of stock value. This problem lies squarely at the feet of their management.

Look at the Market performance of GM compared to the DOW.
http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/z?s=...%5EDJI&a=v&p=s

Now one would expect in looking at that performance that the CEO would be deprived of salary increases or maybe even be fired. Nope, Wagoneer had his compansation increased by 64% from 2006 to 2007.

Chrysler is another case. Bought by Dalmer and then by Cerberus who owns 51% of Chrysler now. When questioned about the resources of Cerberus, they stated to congress that they had enough cash to bail out Chrysler without government funds but they would not put another penny into the carmaker. They want our taxpayer money for their private company. Why spend your own money when you can suckle at the teat of the US taxpayer.

The bottom line is that the Big three are not making the kind of vehicles many Americans want to own. They are first to brag that they have made strides in initial quality but they don't talk about reliability, residual value or cost of ownership comparisons. There is the fly in their ointment.

Dependability-ratings-by-brand
Ratings | J.D. Power

Quality-ratings-by-brand
Ratings | J.D. Power

Performance-and-design-ratings-by-brand
Ratings | J.D. Power

Most dependable manufacturers list from Cars.com
Most Dependable Manufacturers - Cars.com

Best resale value list from Cars.com
Best Car Resale Values by Class - Cars.com

Is there anyone here who thinks that a Chevy will cost them less to own than a Honda or a Toyota over say 5 or 10 years? If there is, you are in the minority. So given you are about to make a very large investment in an asset that depreciates rapidly, what would you buy? You can see what most Americans are choosing.

You need to ask of the Detroit 3, are these companies viable in the long term? I could see a short term bailout if the companies had some liklihood that they could be well run and be competitive in the long term. Sadly, I just don't see that. I see greedy CEO's and out of touch board members as vampires sucking the last drops of blood from three dying corpses.

Tragically, this is going to be extremely painful for many of us. The loss of jobs, both direct and collateral will number in the millions which will most surely drive us into a depression. Yet can we in good conscience, continue to throw our children's money at a problem that is beyond a cash only resolution.

Our government has spent $8.5 Trillion on bailouts. That's T as in followed by 12 zeros. $8,500,000,000,000.

Lets just look at a trillion to put things in perspective for a moment.

1 Trillion seconds = 31,546 years

Assume for a moment that we could pay off this debt at the rate of a dollar a second. Our $8.5 Trillion in bailout debt would take 268,141 years to pay off. Assuming, of course, that there is no interest accumulating on that debt and that we immediately stop borrowing on our children's future.

Time our congress stops this madness. Yet the line of people asking congress for bailouts is stretching all the way across this country. Many states governments are now asking for their handouts. The airplane manufacturers, boat builders, farmers, ethanol makers, railroads, the list keeps growing. They all want some free money. Well there is no free money.

Good post...

[RedlineIRL]

Originally Posted by FlowRate

My dad keeps telling us about how his uncles worked for GM and got 2 months of vacation + $40/hour to sit and watch a machine. It's simply not sustainable business practice when you're also producing what is widely regarded as an inferior product.

Your dad is also full of it. No GM assembly line worker $40 an hour. It pisses me off that the American public seems to think Detriot auto workers make elaborate wages and live the life of luxury. I'll tell you right now that couldn't be any further from the truth. They're middle class Americans.

[Len_A]

Ok this is going to be a LONG post, responding back to many posts, some I agree with, and some that need an opposing opinion:

Originally Posted by MBenz

For what i have been told, GM got screwed was their own dealerships.

GM has about 10 times as many dealerships as toyota and honda. The owners of these dealers thought they were smart and all got legislation passed that made their contracts with GM locked. Basically GM would have to meet the demands of the Dealership or face the government. GM hit some tuff times and could not afford to supply x number of required cars to the dealerships and so they had to lay off workers in an effort to avoid chapter 9. Meanwhile, the dealerships are able to maintain enough sales to stay afloat while the hand that feeds starts to sink.
Poor Management, Quality control, and rising popularity of imports were also big factors.

Dealers are franchises, protected by very strong franchise laws in each state. It makes extraordinarily difficult to close down dealers, and impossible to do it on the cheap. From GM faces costly route to scrap Hummer | The Detroit News | detnews.com

But untangling the web of relationships to dealerships could be time-consuming and costly.
The car companies established their dealership networks decades ago because they figured that independent businesspeople would work harder than employees, and take on the burden of capital costs for retail buildings. But the arrangement was not without friction. In the 1920s and 1930s, for instance, manufacturers forced dealers to take inventory even in weak markets, and the dealers sought help from state legislatures. Today, state laws set all sorts of rules. In Texas, no two dealers of the same brand can be less than 15 miles apart. In Maine and Florida, dealers can charge auto manufacturers full retail price for parts that manufacturers supply the dealers for warranty repairs.
State laws "keep dealers from getting taken advantage of by manufacturers," said Churchill, the Fort Worth Hummer dealer. "It's a David and Goliath situation. It kind of gives the dealers a little bit more muscle."
Now, if an automaker wants to close down a dealer for whatever reason -- known as a "forced termination" -- it can take from six months to two years, including court appeals. Many analysts say that GM paid more than $1 billion to dealers when it killed off its Oldsmobile line. GM would not say how much it spent.

Originally Posted by MSOsr

What has hit the Big 3 is their legacy costs: insurance and retirement benefits for thousands/millions of retired workers (that lived years and years longer than what was projected when contracts were signed). The sad thing is that in 2010, those costs are absorbed by the UAW and the Big 3 should be in good shape going forward.

Toyota, Nissan and the other manufacturers that have built plants in the US have no "legacy" employees and can therefore profit with fewer units being sold.

The problem is GM, without a "bridge loan" from the government, will run out of cash before 2010, because it didn't borrow up its credit limits when credit was available.

The automobile industry runs off credit and those lines have been closed.

Mike

Exactly correct. This problem is more the closing down of credit lines whilethe Detroit industry is in the middle of restructuring.

Originally Posted by longdx

Exactly, Honda and Toyota (to be fair with a subsidy from the Japanese Government) introduced Hybrids during the early nineties (when gas was inexpensive and plentiful) They essentially brought a unique approach to fuel savings to a marketplace 10 years before the market would readily embrace it. (i.e. early Insights and Prius' were niche vehicles). The US companies decided to play as wait and see approach to see if this technology caught on.

Even before that, Toyota and Honda build vehicles essentially off of 2 platforms(Corolla/Camry and Civic/Accord) and spent years refining and perfecting these platforms. They subscribed to Dr. E. Deming's philosophy of total quality management 40 years before the US companies jumped on board (commonly called Six Sigma). This essentially taught the Japanese to test for quality at every stage of manufacturing.

In order for GM to survive, they need to pare down their brands, simplify operations and have a monumental philosophical change in management. (They Jetpool fiasco during the Congressional hearings for additional funding really represent how out of touch the current CEO's, even if it is only symbolically.) They have the engineering talent.

Exactly on point. And the Detroit automakers were also closely following the technology to see how reliable it is. Add to that the fact that no one wants to trade foreign oil for foreign batteries.
Also don’t forget something else, as far as government subsidies: Every foreign owned auto plant, assembly, engine, transmission, or foreign owned supplier also got American tax payer subsidies to built brand new, high tech modern plants in Greenfield locations (that required no clean up). And the unfairness to people like me, who are dependant on the Detroit auto industry for a living (and I’ve been an unemployed college educated twenty-five year veteran professional, and my wife now also a college educated, but unemployed professional) is that our federal taxes were used to make highway and rail spur improvements for these transplants. My tax dollars, taken to other states, and used to slowly kill me. Real nice.
Wall Street Journal, April 3, 2002

In 1993, Alabama persuaded Mercedes-Benz to build its first U.S. auto plant here by offering the luxury-car maker $253 million worth of incentives -- $169,000 for every job Mercedes promised the state.

Honda to Build Light-Truck Plant in Alabama - Los Angeles Times

The Honda plant will be built in Lincoln, a small town 40 miles east of Birmingham along Interstate 20. The company was enticed in part by a $158-million public-private incentive package that includes tax abatements, employee training and infrastructure development.

The State of Michigan, couldn't even come close to matching those incentives. At that time a Republican, John Engler, was trying to trim the size of Michigan state government. In fact, the State of Michigan was outraged that so much money was going to subsidize competitors to the Big Three. Partly because of things like this, we in Michigan pay out more in federal taxes than we get back in federal dollars to our state.

Originally Posted by ZaneO

As we can see, there are a huge number of contributing factors. IMHO, one of the biggest factors (if not THE biggest) is a greedy union.

That’s just so much B.S., I can’t even begin to deal with it. Last year, Toyota employees made more money than the UAW members. Toyota workers in Kentucky plant made more than UAW members last year - Autoblog
Chryselr tied Toyota in productivity: Chrysler ties Toyota for most productive plants in North America - Autoblog
So much for greedy unions.

Originally Posted by ianitrix

God ZaneO you are retarded. Blame the union for this, while the CEO is making millions as a salary and flying on his private jet??
Give your head a shake, seems to me your jealous of them..

Exactly. Well said.

Originally Posted by ramtough

Union is part of the problem. Somebody making $28 to$30 an hr. for for screwing in a bolt or gluing weatherstipping on is rediculouis. The union made GM,DODGE AND FORD charge $30,000 to $40,000 for a car that should cost $15,,000 to $ 20,000.

I’m calling bullsh*t on this one. Toyota workers out earned their UAW counterparts. Toyota workers in Kentucky plant made more than UAW members last year - Autoblog And it’s for good reason, union or nonunion, that auto manufacturing pays well. Even in modern plants, with improved ergonomics, the work is mind-numbingly repetitious, where you have to perform the same job 45 to 60 times an hour, eight hours a day (minimum, unless your plants’ product sells well, and then there’s overtime), five days a week (unless there’s overtime), 50 weeks out of the year for the first five years, with the company determining when your two weeks vacation are – one in July, and one in December, no exceptions. It’s called being subject to repetitive motion injury, that lasts a life time. It’s called being let go if you can’t cut it as “Not Suited For Industrial Employment”.

You have no clue what you’re talking about. Whether it’s the transplants, or the GM, Ford, and Chrysler, labor is only 10% of the cost of a car or truck. The biggest cost going into manufacturing a car or truck is the tens of millions of dollars it costs to R &D and come up with a new car. Meeting EPA emissions, CAFÉ (MPG), and NHTSA safety regs is horrendous, and the three areas of regulations are at odds with each other. The next largest cost going into a car or truck is raw material costs, which often fluctuate wildly during a model year, and have to be purchased under contract six months in advance or more.

Originally Posted by FlowRate

My dad keeps telling us about how his uncles worked for GM and got 2 months of vacation + $40/hour to sit and watch a machine. It's simply not sustainable business practice when you're also producing what is widely regarded as an inferior product.

Then your dad has either got it wrong, or his uncles told him wrong. My Dad retired from Ford nine years ago. First of all, all three companies have similar pay scales and identical vacation rules. All of what you posted is absolutely wrong.
Maximum vacation is five weeks, and that includes the two weeks of biannual shut down – one week in July, and one week at the end of the year. That is for employees over twenty years senority with eth company.
Including cost of living allowance, maximum pay this year is $28.12 an hour for existing employees. New hires are half that under the two tiered wage structure Source: Wages - UAW/GM Contract 2007 When was it ever $40 an hour? It’s repeating blantly false things like that, and then stating them like gospel that really gets me upset.

Originally Posted by AspenF150

I never worked for Bush, I was a Press Operator for Whirlpool.

Bush let the economy go down as well as CEO's, Management and all the other crooks who I think belong in jail.

He let people take there eye off the ball. Meaning, all the management idiots pretty much did whatever they want and pamper there own *** even at the companies expense. Bush didn't give a [insert phrase here] what happened so banks and corporations decided to come up with all these wild ideas just to get people in there pockets and now there taking it in the neck for it. Yea real smart Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac etc...

Personally I'd rather make a consistent flow of lesser money than make a huge amount of money and risk my job. The bush administration, CEO's, Management and just people in general who make stupid decisions like biting off on a mortage than they can chew. That's who I blame.

They typically let these companies chase the lower labor cost, with no regard for what it does to the employees left behind. I’m with you. I have a four year degree, twenty-five years experience and I’ve been out of work for fifteen months. My wife is a degreed (2 four year degrees), experienced paralegal, and because Chrysler wanted their contract with Michigan’s largest law firm cut down by $350,000, my wife, along with four other people , lost her job this past week. Three paralegals, a legal secretary and an attorney. Out of work. And all I see is bunch of sanctimonious, self-righteous nonsense about letting the free market work. Wake up people – there is no free market when foreign owned manufacturing plants get hundreds of millions of dollars in taxpayer funded incentives.

Originally Posted by lawrencea

How much does one need to make in todays world. $40.00 per hour is $1600.00 per week. That means that your morgage shouldnt be over $1600.00 per month including taxes. That is the old way to figure it , and thats the way I still figure it. That wont cover a house in the Chicago area. Forget the wife working. Wifes money is for the extras that life has to offer, saving for College, retirerment, that special vacation. If a man cant buy a decent house on 40 hours then he doesent have a good job. Everbody deserves and needs a good job. How many exects.at the big 3 can live on $1600.00 per week before taxes.

Those figures are wrong, exaggerations restated as facts. See my response to the $40 an hour above. They actually make far less than $40 an hour. And I’m with you – everyone deserves a good job.

Originally Posted by FlowRate

Managers at retail chains, people who do something more than watch a machine, make less than $40/hour. It's hard for them, definitely. But unless you're a hardcore socialist, I don't think "everyone deserves and needs a good job."

They don’t make $40 an hour. Please don’t quote an inaccuracy as a fact, please.

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

Maybe this is part of the problem, perceptions created through heresay. I'm no fan of unions (and I have worked in/with plenty). I'm sure the UAW has plenty of cushy jobs and generous work rules but thinking that a car gets built by people "sitting and watching" reminds me of high school and the kid who wanted to be a neurosurgeon because his uncle was one and all he did was sit in his office an look at X-rays and make big bucks. I pointed out that his uncle had to go to med school, intern, and work for many years to have the knowledge, experience, and expertise to just "sit in his office".

Also reminds me of the joke about the business owner whose machine breaks down. He calls the repairman, who comes in, looks the machine up and down, strokes his chin, opens his tool bag, takes out a hammer, and bangs the side of the machine, which then starts up and runs perfectly. He then hands a bill to the owner for $500. The owner, outraged, yells "would you care to itemize that for me!?". And the repairman says "sure", takes the bill back, and writes "Banging on machine: $2. Knowing where to bang: $498.

Perhaps those guys who just "got to sit and watch a machine" had worked for years to become expert machinists, and who now monitored a high production machine where their expertise is used to listen to the sounds of the cutting tool etc. to make sure the machine is operating properly, and fix it if it isn't.

THANK YOU! Well said, indeed, and very accurate.

Originally Posted by Cleaning Fool

Anybody drive the GMC Canyon or Colorado pick up? Pretty much an embarassment. I mean, is this all the better they could do? Are you kidding me! Unrefined, loud and poor engineering. And they wonder why they are in trouble.

Jointly designed with Isuzu, if that tells you anything about non-Detroit expertise. And I know for a fact that there was heavy Isuzu involvement in the design, because I was trying to sell torque tools for the assembly process on this truck and that was all the way back in 2000. It took that long, with Japanese “expert” help to get that vehicle to market. There’s more to the problems than just Detroit’s mistakes.

Originally Posted by jcandiman

car making in the US has become a bean counter's business. in the last 10 years GM has paid $153billion to fund pensions and make direct pension payments. this, of course, is their obligation by way of agreements made with the UAW, but has nothing to do with how a car goes, stops or handles.

Very, very true, and the bean counters have had more to do with interfering in the design process than people realize. Now, in return for government loans, Washington wants to take on the bean counters interference role. HELLO????

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by RedlineIRL

Your dad is also full of it. No GM assembly line worker $40 an hour. It pisses me off that the American public seems to think Detriot auto workers make elaborate wages and live the life of luxury. I'll tell you right now that couldn't be any further from the truth. They're middle class Americans.

That's 100% Correct - no UAW employee makes $40 an hour. Middle class is right, and in a lot of cases, living paycheck to paycheck. When I grew up, if my dad didn't get overtime, we were hurting. 40 an hour is blatantly false, and typical of the outright anti-Detroit, anti-blue collar worker statements that have become common on these web sites.

THANK YOU!! Damn, I'm glad to see others posting the truth here. I was feeling like a voice in the g*d d*mn wilderness!!

[Len_A]

7 myths about Detroit automakers

BY MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

This column by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan originally was published on Nov. 17 and has been updated.

The debate over aid to the Detroit-based automakers is awash with half-truths and misrepresentations that are endlessly repeated by everyone from members of Congress to journalists. Here are seven myths about the companies and their vehicles, and the reality in each case.

Myth No. 1: Nobody buys their vehicles

Reality: General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler LLC sold 8.5 million vehicles in the United States last year and millions more around the world. GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the United States last year and holds a U.S. lead over Toyota of nearly 700,000 so far this year. Globally, GM in 2007 remained the world's largest automaker, selling 9,369,524 vehicles worldwide -- about 3,000 more than Toyota.

Ford outsold Honda by about 850,000 and Nissan by more than 1.3 million vehicles in the United States last year.

Chrysler sold more vehicles here than Nissan and Hyundai combined in 2007 and so far this year.

Myth No. 2: They build unreliable junk

Reality: The creaky, leaky vehicles of the 1980s and '90s are long gone. Consumer Reports recently found that "Ford's reliability is now on par with good Japanese automakers."

The independent J.D. Power Initial Quality Study scored Buick, Cadillac, Chevrolet, Ford, GMC, Mercury, Pontiac and Lincoln brands' overall quality as high as or higher than that of Acura, Audi, BMW, Honda, Nissan, Scion, Volkswagen and Volvo.

J.D. Power rated the Chevrolet Malibu the highest-quality midsize sedan. Both the Malibu and Ford Fusion scored better than the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

Myth No. 3: They build gas-guzzlers

Reality: All of the Detroit Three build midsize sedans that the Environmental Protection Agency rates at 29-33 miles per gallon on the highway.

The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Malibu gets 33 m.p.g. on the highway, 2 m.p.g. better than the best Honda Accord. The most fuel-efficient Ford Focus has the same highway fuel economy ratings as the most efficient Toyota Corolla. The most fuel-efficient Chevrolet Cobalt has the same city fuel economy and better highway fuel economy than the most efficient non-hybrid Honda Civic.

A recent study by Edmunds.com found that the Chevrolet Aveo subcompact is the least expensive car to buy and operate. (personal note - I kind of dispute this being in here, as the Aveo is a Korean built import)

Myth No. 4: They already got a $25-billion bailout

Reality: None of that money has been lent out and may not be for more than a year. In addition, it can, by law, be used only to invest in future vehicles and technology, so it has no effect on the shortage of operating cash the companies face because of the economic slowdown that's killing them now.

Myth No. 5: GM, Ford and Chrysler are idiots for investing in pickups and SUVs

Reality: The domestics' lineup has been truck-heavy, but Toyota, Nissan, Mercedes-Benz and BMW have spent billions of dollars on pickups and SUVs because trucks are a large and historically profitable part of the auto industry.

The most fuel-efficient full-size pickups from GM, Ford and Chrysler all have higher EPA fuel-economy ratings than Toyota and Nissan's full-size pickups.

Myth No. 6: They don't build hybrids

Reality: The Detroit Three got into the hybrid business late, but Ford and GM each now offers more hybrid models than Honda or Nissan, with several more due to hit the road in early 2009.

Myth No. 7: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid

Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.

The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.

Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.