Is Obama serious?

[TH0001]

He is blaming McCain for the turndown now? Politics are seriously stupid (both sides).

McCain was saying two years ago that we need tighter regulations and authored bills on Fannie and Freddie TWO years ago... Obama voted present on legislature regarding such... Democrats where stating that McCain was WRONG for wanting to tighten the reigns...

Now Obama says that McCains oversite (he authored atleast 2 bills for tigher regulation while he voted present) is what has led to this downturn???

I just saw where they called out one of his campaign guys, and the campaign guy was like "Well we aren't hear to point fingers" which is a typical response after you pointed your fingers but the facts make you look like a liar...

Also lets vote against saving America because the worse it is, the more chance a democrat will be voted in.... Politicans once again putting party and voting over whats good for the country.

Coupled with more food poisoning from China (considering that will still by stuff from China) and I am starting to wonder if America is really this dumb.

Our economy sucks because people who make 40k a year live in 400k houses and drive 50k cars... You cannot stop people from being dumb.

[Scottwax]

I hear ya. The loosening of credit through Fannie May was a Clinton administration idea as reported in the New York Times on September 30, 1999. McCain was pushing in 2000 (he co-sponsered a bill) for tighter regulations.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by TH0001

McCain was saying two years ago that we need tighter regulations and authored bills on Fannie and Freddie TWO years ago... Obama voted present on legislature regarding such...

You do realize that it is impossible to vote "present" on a US Senate bill? Those criticisms of Obama pertain to the Illinois legislature, where the "present" vote is a form of abstension.

Originally Posted by TH0001

Our economy sucks because people who make 40k a year live in 400k houses and drive 50k cars... You cannot stop people from being dumb.

Is that why it sucks? I guess you and I live in different parts of the country. Around here, we think the economy sucks because all the people work on Wall St. and get paid millions or 10's of millions of dollars to work in companies that reward people for writing bad mortgages, sending jobs overseas, cutting R&D, and then when their companies get in trouble, get bailed out by the government. Oh, and those Wall St. workers, because they have enough money to throw around, drive up the cost of housing so the "dumb" person in your example had to pay $400K for a $200K house. I personally don't come into contact with anyone like your example; are those your friends and neighbors? All the people I come into contact with either have more money than they know what to do with, or are struggling just to get by...without expensive cars or houses.

Maybe you can't stop people from being dumb, but you can stop them from getting a car loan or a mortgage if they can't afford it. Once upon a time, you had to qualify for those things. Other posters can blame this on government, but in the end, it's the lenders who lent money to bad risks, because (IMO) of their greed.

[dave40co]

That and Bush spending money like a drunk sailor have got us into this mess. I say let them fail and lets start over. Cut spending and lower taxes like Reagan did. We also have the makings of another cold war going on. Maybe if the spoiled kids of today and their spoiled parents felt a little pain they would learn some respect. If the country had a depression we wouldn't be so attractive for the illegals and some people would actually have to work for a living.

[Flashtime]

Maybe you can't stop people from being dumb, but you can stop them from getting a car loan or a mortgage if they can't afford it. Once upon a time, you had to qualify for those things. Other posters can blame this on government, but in the end, it's the lenders who lent money to bad risks, because (IMO) of their greed.

A greed.

Hopefully, all this is a wake up call.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by dave40co

...some people would actually have to work for a living.

You know, we've had some other threads and I have said some things that people may have interpreted as me saying that people don't work for a living, or that they shouldn't be rewarded for hard work. I don't believe that at all.

It's just that everything is so out of whack now. Can any of you who have accused others of us here as being "unfair" to the wealthy really say that the obscene CEO, entertainer, and sports figure salaries are completely ridiculous?

CEO's always made a lot of money, but it was more like what the President of the US makes, $400,000. Can you really justify any CEO making 250 times that? It should be noted that people like Gates and Jobs for many years made $1 in salary, and made their money from the value of their stock increasing. Besides, these are people that started their own companies, arguably their own industries, they are entitled.

There are vicious circles involved here...let's look at the sports one. The players demand huge salaries, the owners can't pay them so they have to up ticket prices, and they need more money from the media coverage...which commercial TV can't pay, so they go to a cable channel...so now the poor fan has to pay a huge amount to go to the stadium/arena, or has to pay for a separate sports channel to watch their team on TV...the loser there is the fan.

Why does it cost so much to go to the movies now? Is it in part because of the huge salaries the stars make?

In a sense, it's all free-agency now, from the athletes to the entertainers, to the CEO's.

[dave40co]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

You know, we've had some other threads and I have said some things that people may have interpreted as me saying that people don't work for a living, or that they shouldn't be rewarded for hard work. I don't believe that at all.

It's just that everything is so out of whack now. Can any of you who have accused others of us here as being "unfair" to the wealthy really say that the obscene CEO, entertainer, and sports figure salaries are completely ridiculous?

CEO's always made a lot of money, but it was more like what the President of the US makes, $400,000. Can you really justify any CEO making 250 times that? It should be noted that people like Gates and Jobs for many years made $1 in salary, and made their money from the value of their stock increasing. Besides, these are people that started their own companies, arguably their own industries, they are entitled.

There are vicious circles involved here...let's look at the sports one. The players demand huge salaries, the owners can't pay them so they have to up ticket prices, and they need more money from the media coverage...which commercial TV can't pay, so they go to a cable channel...so now the poor fan has to pay a huge amount to go to the stadium/arena, or has to pay for a separate sports channel to watch their team on TV...the loser there is the fan.

Why does it cost so much to go to the movies now? Is it in part because of the huge salaries the stars make?

In a sense, it's all free-agency now, from the athletes to the entertainers, to the CEO's.

I totally agree and I know we sit on opposite ends politically!

[rydawg]

Originally Posted by TH0001

Our economy sucks because people who make 40k a year live in 400k houses and drive 50k cars... You cannot stop people from being dumb.

Your right Todd. This is why the economy is struggling so hard. I remember from 2002 to 2006, people were putting offers on houses more than what the house was actually selling for just so they would get it.

Example: In 1999 a house sold for 199,000 and then in 2002 it was now sold for 249,000, then next year it was sold for 289,000, then in 2006 it was then sold for349,000.

Also, if a house sold for 349,000 quickly, then the house in the same neighborhood was trying to be sold for 359,000. It just kept on climbing the ladder.

All the r. estate agents built the hype on the property values going up and staying up, plus they were working hard with the loan officers to get the loan to get approved no matter what it would take. They made it looked like they were actually putting down money when in reality they were not.

Now after all this is going on, the banks are now sending out letters stating that the loan to value is no longer available. All people with equity lines are being suspended by the banks stating the loan to value has changed. This means you are unable to make any additional home equity credit line advances and all home equity credit line checks and credit card access transactions will be refused and returned unpaid.

I remember my bank telling me to pay off the equity loan fast and I can always borrow if needed.... I am very glad we didn't make that mistake of dumping everything we had into it now.

The reason for all of this is... the people buying these houses for stupid prices built on hype from r.estate agents and mortgage companies all came to a crash, and the people in the houses can't afford them cause they had no business getting approved in the first place.

The sad part is now I know a few r. estate agents that have been in the business for many years and are no longer doing it full time anymore due to the hype crash and are now working full time jobs for 10-12 an hour.

My brother was very successful at flipping houses for 12 years is now flipping pizzas for $12 an hour working 60 hour weeks. He never seen that coming.

[Jakerooni]

Funny the commercials aired on TV here say exactly the opposite thing. It's McCain slamming Obama constantly saying he's the one to blame. I've yet to see any aired commercial where obama is blaming McCain for any of this mess. I guess it really all depends on what part of the country you live in as to what commercials and political garabage you're subjected to constantly.

In either case it's really neither one of these guys fault we're in this mess. I don't recall anything coming down to a 1 vote margin and either canidate being the ulitmate deciding factor to anything... And again with the whole blaming clinton thing... Even if he relaxed the credit criteria it didn't put a gun to anyone's head to actually sign on stupid loans. This mess is completely the banks fault and no one else's. Passing the buck is such a stupid *** thing to do. Time to grow up a bit and take some responsibility for one's own actions. And besides if this really was a political thing that caused this mess the current retard...errr... president had 8 years to fix it. Did nothing of the sort and decided it just wasn't worth looking that hard into.... Apparently the American economy just isn't that important to a oil hungry war monger these days... ehh go figure.

[rydawg]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

You know, we've had some other threads and I have said some things that people may have interpreted as me saying that people don't work for a living, or that they shouldn't be rewarded for hard work. I don't believe that at all.

It's just that everything is so out of whack now. Can any of you who have accused others of us here as being "unfair" to the wealthy really say that the obscene CEO, entertainer, and sports figure salaries are completely ridiculous?

CEO's always made a lot of money, but it was more like what the President of the US makes, $400,000. Can you really justify any CEO making 250 times that? It should be noted that people like Gates and Jobs for many years made $1 in salary, and made their money from the value of their stock increasing. Besides, these are people that started their own companies, arguably their own industries, they are entitled.

There are vicious circles involved here...let's look at the sports one. The players demand huge salaries, the owners can't pay them so they have to up ticket prices, and they need more money from the media coverage...which commercial TV can't pay, so they go to a cable channel...so now the poor fan has to pay a huge amount to go to the stadium/arena, or has to pay for a separate sports channel to watch their team on TV...the loser there is the fan.
Why does it cost so much to go to the movies now? Is it in part because of the huge salaries the stars make?

In a sense, it's all free-agency now, from the athletes to the entertainers, to the CEO's.

I totally agree with you on the sports and ticket pricing due to the greedy players. I say get rid of them and get some new talent in.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by rydawg

Your right Todd. This is why the economy is struggling so hard. I remember from 2002 to 2006, people were putting offers on houses more than what the house was actually selling for just so they would get it.

Example: In 1999 a house sold for 199,000 and then in 2002 it was now sold for 249,000, then next year it was sold for 289,000, then in 2006 it was then sold for349,000.

Also, if a house sold for 349,000 quickly, then the house in the same neighborhood was trying to be sold for 359,000. It just kept on climbing the ladder.

So is the problem the people who wanted to buy the house? Or the enabling lender who gave a loan for more than the house was worth? The car salesman who talks the car buyer into a higher payment than they wanted so he can make a bigger commission...who's fault is it when the loan is defaulted and the car gets reposessed? How many more people would be in that kind of trouble with their cars if the dealer said...gee, I'd love to get you into this car for $400/month, but see that couple standing over there? They'll pay $425/mo., but if you pay $450 I'll give the car to you!

If the gov't eased lending rules, it was so people could buy that $199K house, not so the real estate people and the banks could collude to drive the price up to $349K.

[TH0001]

Is that why it sucks? I guess you and I live in different parts of the country. Around here, we think the economy sucks because all the people work on Wall St. and get paid millions or 10's of millions of dollars to work in companies that reward people for writing bad mortgages, sending jobs overseas, cutting R&D, and then when their companies get in trouble, get bailed out by the government. Oh, and those Wall St. workers, because they have enough money to throw around, drive up the cost of housing so the "dumb" person in your example had to pay $400K for a $200K house. I personally don't come into contact with anyone like your example; are those your friends and neighbors? All the people I come into contact with either have more money than they know what to do with, or are struggling just to get by...without expensive cars or houses.

Yes that is why it sucks, IMO.

Maybe it is different parts of the country. To answer your questions/critism

A)Florida has been hit hard by the housing crisis and given that a lot of our economy depends on tourism, we have been hit hard by the economy as well.

B)Most of the people I know, went to college with, etc are the exact people I was referring to.

The problem with an open-market capitilism is that it is set by the market (the common man). I don't see how evil, mean CEO's are the ones to blame. The ones to blame are the people who spent money on stuff they couldn't afford. Nobody HAD to buy a 200k house for 400k, regardless of what the evil CEO's were doing. However people wanted to live in a 200k house, and their demand drove the prices up. Perhaps they shouldn't have bought what they couldn't afford, and lived in their means (perhaps a 100k house for 150k).

I see a lot of friends and acquientences who make less money, have more kids, drive nicer cars, etc... However they are so far in debt (like most of America) and live so far beyond their means (maybe just Florida?). No matter what fixes we do, if people continue to live beyond their means, then the rich will get richer and middle class will fade. However you can not legislate people to living in their means.

Maybe you can't stop people from being dumb, but you can stop them from getting a car loan or a mortgage if they can't afford it. Once upon a time, you had to qualify for those things. Other posters can blame this on government, but in the end, it's the lenders who lent money to bad risks, because (IMO) of their greed.[

I'm not so quick to let people of the hook because of the lenders. If people signed the loan or mortgage and they couldn't afford it, then really the blame relys on the people who choose to sign their name.

The lenders screwed up by taking to much risk, and they (not us) should pay for it. However, people should take respondsiblity for the papers they sign and the debt they cannot pay (which has effected all of us).