Republican or Democrat?

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by Scottwax

Christian values do not stipulate the government be in the benevolence business but that people should be on their own. That being said, I have no problems with assistance programs like day care, transportation vouchers, etc to help move people from welfare to working for a living. I just don't think that government assistance should be a way of life.

How does adjusting tax rates equate to "government assistance"? Why is this so black and white to you guys? That this is somehow creating or increasing a welfare state? The initial proposals were simply to eliminate the Bush tax cuts, which would put us back to the rates of the Clinton administration. Whatever you or I think of Clinton, the economy didn't implode under those tax rates.

We just had an economic stimulus package, which resulted in a lot of people getting a $600 check that your wealthy clients didn't. Did any of you send yours back in protest because your wealthy clients didn't get one too? Isn't this just another redistribution of wealth? Socialism? Why didn't everyone get a check? Do you think Todd's billionaire client needed an extra $600? Did his "worth over $100 million" clients need an extra $600? Are they going to stop getting their cars detailed because they didn't get that $600?

If the proposal was that people making $100K were going to get an 11.5% tax increase, then I would agree that you guys might lose your clientele, but that's not what anybody's talking about.

And if you guys think the tax picture is going to be rosy under either administration with a $400 million+ budget deficit, a $100 billion+ a year war going on and a $700 billion bailout this week on top of the $85 billion last week, keep thinking. We had another president who ran on a "read my lips, no new taxes" platform, and we know how that turned out.

[Setec Astronomy]

I'm tired of this debate. This is as bad as a Zaino or NXT thread, except the stuff we're talking about in this thread actually has some importance, unlike detailing. I wish we all analyzed and scrutinized foreign affairs and the economy as closely as we do a car's finish.

[TH0001]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

I agree that we should agree to disagree. Let me leave you with this--you have children. I expect that you care for them, that you sacrifice for them. I expect that you may also exhibit empathy for children in general, and that if you saw another child who was being mistreated, or whose parents didn't have the wherewithal that you do, you might help that child. Perhaps that child might be your child's friend. Perhaps if that child's parents couldn't afford give him some of the experiences that you give to your child, you might invite your child's friend to go to the zoo with you, and pay his way, so that he could enjoy the zoo, also, because you have the ability to pay his zoo ticket and his lunch. Or maybe not, maybe you would just say that that child should fend for himself, that if he can't do it on his own, screw him, or that he's just out of luck if his parents can't afford that. Hey, he's 8 years old, if he wants to go to the zoo he should just get a job!

I really can't see how you can say you are willing to pay more taxes but it's wrong to make other people pay more taxes. Perhaps some of the billionaires would like to pay more taxes as well, to help us with this deficit/debt and some other problems. As one of the candidates says, we need to aspire to things greater than our own self-interest.

Setec, I understand your point about the child, and I would CHOOSE to help that child out. I base my thoughts on emotinal as well, but here is where I think your logic falls apart.

In the last 30 years we have increaed our social programs to help out certain classes. Evidence and logic has shown that instead of helping people rise above it tends to create a dependency. Do I feel bad for a child whose parent wasn't responsible enough to secure a good living for them before the had them? Of course I do, but I disagree that taking money from the people who have earned it and giving it to people who haven't is the best route.

I will share a story will you.

Three years ago my wife was in her first year of teaching. At his point we where broke, 30k in student loans and a large bill from our wedding that nobody. Overall we where 50k in the whole plus 180k for a morgage. Anyways my son was about to celebrate his first Christmas and my wife and I could only 'budget 100' dollars for his gifts.

My wife comes home one week before Christmas break and is telling me a story of a child in her class who was failing because he couldn't read the board. He had very bad vision and the government only supplied glasses once a year. I thought this was terrible as did my wife, so we sacarficed what money we didn't have and bought the kid a pair of glasses (about 120 dollars or so). At this time in our life we absolutely couldn't afford it but we did it anyways. (FWIW, my wife teaches in a low income school where 90% of the students get free and reduced lunch but wear nice, brand name clothes).

So she comes home after her first day back from Christmas break and is livid. The student we bought glasses for was bragging what he got for Christmas. A PSP, an XBOX, a RaZOR phone (back when these where 300 bucks) etc... ***, I couldn't afford 100 dollars for my son's Chirstmas, let alone 120 for his glasses... Yet he gets 700 dollars or more in gifts... Also the student's mom has 4 kids and doesn't work. Here I am struggling to pay for one kid, talk about feeling like a sucker...

This is not uncommon in lower class areas, just ask any school teacher. So what do we do, we pump money to these parents who will let their kids fail in school but buy them toys they cannot afford. This is one example of course,.

I (as everybody knows) work with for some weathly clients. I remember going out to eat at a nice restaraunt and seeing some. So we combined tables, I ordered a big meal, and pigged out. At then end one of my client's offered to pay the bill (which was nice of him of course) but I couldn't accept. First the bill was large and I ordered the food. Not only that but I orded the most expensive item. Just because he has WAY more money then I do, I would never let anybody foot the bill for me.

So I would like to help people (esp childern who are 'iinnocent' but our failed social/liberal programs have done nothing to improve the situation. Giving money to those who are unwilling to work and sacarfice for it (esp when they have childern!) is kind of like inviting a robber into your house. Instead of public healthcare I would rather see a public school system worth a ****. At some point though people have to stand on their own two feet and the truth is that many of them won't.

[User Name]

Setec,

I've enjoyed reading your posts. Very interesting and well reasoned. Even the other here, who I might disagree with on a philosophical level (like Scottwax or Jakerooni) have made excellent points worth contemplating.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by TH0001

I will share a story will you.

Ok, now I understand why you are so animated about this (BTW, I like to tell a story that is very similar in spirit but very different in circumstances, about a friend of a friend). But the tax changes being talked about are for people with INCOMES...i.e., people who WORK. I don't think any of the candidates since back when the primaries started has suggested that welfare and food stamps be increased.

Look, I almost voted for Perot in '92 because even though the Reagan budgets had been good for me professionally, I agreed that deficit spending was ultimately not. Clinton, probably mostly through coincidence rather than policy, was able to balance the budget and almost make the debt a moot point.

Now we have a debt and deficit that makes Reagan's work look amateurish. We sell more of our debt to China (the next superpower) every day. They have shot down a satellite and are about to orbit astronauts and perform a spacewalk. They will put a man on the moon before we get back there. Does anyone really believe that the money and jobs we send there every day will NOT result in them eclipsing us as the pre-eminent power in a matter of decades?

Our government is hemmorhaging money, and even if we somehow massively cut spending and balance the budget, this debt will bleed us dry. So we will need more tax revenue. Where is it going to come from? If you think that increasing taxes on people who make more than $603,000 will hurt your business and the economy, think what effect increasing your taxes and my taxes and the people who make $18,000 a year will have (which may be inevitable with these recent bailouts). I submit that the poor executives from Wall St. who may lose their jobs in this charade are going to be in a lot better shape than you and me unless they have been living like the King of Saudi Arabia and didn't put any money in the bank (I hope they didn't invest in Wall St. ).

Personally I'd be embarrassed to be the CEO of Merrill Lynch and be the one who was driving when the company, the "bul"wark of Wall St., had to be sold, that I was being paid 10's of millions plus 10's more in bonus and was too stupid to recognize the company was buying huge amounts of bad debt (and if you believe these CEO's didn't know what was going on, then you believe Ken Lay didn't either), or embarrassed to be the CEO of GM, when they are caught with their pants down making Suburbans (or whatever they are now) when gas is $4/gal., and when they've had since the Arab Oil Embargo of '73 to change their ways. I used to really admire GM, but honestly, there is nothing to admire in these large corporations anymore, other than their ability to showcase executive greed.

I think we've talked this to death; our children and grandchildren will have to determine who was right in this debate.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by User Name

Setec,

I've enjoyed reading your posts. Very interesting and well reasoned. Even the other here, who I might disagree with on a philosophical level (like Scottwax or Jakerooni) have made excellent points worth contemplating.

Hey guy, I appreciate that! Looks like when I woke up I wasn't so tired after all At least I know that you understand the unbelievable wealth that we're talking about with that top 0.1% and how they game the system, manipulate the gov't, and ultimately manipulate the electorate, etc. Good luck back in CAN; maybe you can scout out some real estate for us Yanks--the jokes are starting again about a major defection depending who wins the election here!

[Corey Bit Spank]

I pretend I'm from Canada sometimes. I hold doors for people.

[jfelbab]

I might point out that if you took every dollar earned from those 0.1% of the ultra-wealthy you would fix nothing and would actually make the economy worse as they would not continue to stay here. Just as in Scott's story of the ten men, these ultra-wealthy would take their wealth elsewhere, along with their factories and jobs.

You can't tax your way to prosperity. This is important so I'll repeat it, You can't tax your way to prosperity. You need to grow the economy to achieve prosperity. You need to create good jobs for the people so that they become contributors to our economic system and not drainers of our resources.

IMHO, the government needs to create incentives that encourage job creation, not raise taxes. Just as important, congress must be taught to be fiscally responsible. We need to replace those who constantly add pork to bills. They are spending our money like it's Monopoly play money. And many are corrupted by special interests. We need to rid our congress of these leaches.

You can't lay all the blame for the debt on any given president either. It is Congress that spends our hard earned cash and builds up our debt. It's long past time for us to send them a message. Sadly very few Americans seem to give a damn what their congressional representatives are doing. We vote (usually less than half of us) for them and then they go and do what ever the special interest lobbyists tell them to do. Ours is no longer a government "of the people, by the people and for the people" but it is now more appropriately "of the people, by the corrupt and for the special interests."

No argument from me on the grossly overpaid CEO salaries for a few CEO's. But for every CEO you hear about that is dragging down grossly huge salaries there are thousands whose earnings are more in line with what you would consider reasonable. You can't paint every CEO with a "CEO=BAD" brush. This is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the bushel by association.

Our tax system today is already grossly punitive towards those very people who are creating our countries wealth and jobs. In case you missed it, many are already leaving the country. Outsourcing is flourishing because of our tax system. If you think things are bad now just watch the outsourcing increase when you raise their taxes by 11.5%. It's our tax system that is turning us into a second rate country. That coupled with our many corrupt congressmen and thousands of special interests.

It is our fault, really. Unless and until we all start paying attention to what our elected representatives are really up to, and take decisive action when they are corrupt, nothing will change. Sadly, I don't think enough Americans give a damn for anything to change. We all hear about new corruption scandals nearly every month and come along election time these same scoundrels get re-elected. That's our fault.

[rjstaaf]

Originally Posted by TH0001

Setec, I understand your point about the child, and I would CHOOSE to help that child out. I base my thoughts on emotinal as well, but here is where I think your logic falls apart.

In the last 30 years we have increaed our social programs to help out certain classes. Evidence and logic has shown that instead of helping people rise above it tends to create a dependency. Do I feel bad for a child whose parent wasn't responsible enough to secure a good living for them before the had them? Of course I do, but I disagree that taking money from the people who have earned it and giving it to people who haven't is the best route.

I will share a story will you.

Three years ago my wife was in her first year of teaching. At his point we where broke, 30k in student loans and a large bill from our wedding that nobody. Overall we where 50k in the whole plus 180k for a morgage. Anyways my son was about to celebrate his first Christmas and my wife and I could only 'budget 100' dollars for his gifts.

My wife comes home one week before Christmas break and is telling me a story of a child in her class who was failing because he couldn't read the board. He had very bad vision and the government only supplied glasses once a year. I thought this was terrible as did my wife, so we sacarficed what money we didn't have and bought the kid a pair of glasses (about 120 dollars or so). At this time in our life we absolutely couldn't afford it but we did it anyways. (FWIW, my wife teaches in a low income school where 90% of the students get free and reduced lunch but wear nice, brand name clothes).

So she comes home after her first day back from Christmas break and is livid. The student we bought glasses for was bragging what he got for Christmas. A PSP, an XBOX, a RaZOR phone (back when these where 300 bucks) etc... ***, I couldn't afford 100 dollars for my son's Chirstmas, let alone 120 for his glasses... Yet he gets 700 dollars or more in gifts... Also the student's mom has 4 kids and doesn't work. Here I am struggling to pay for one kid, talk about feeling like a sucker...

This is not uncommon in lower class areas, just ask any school teacher. So what do we do, we pump money to these parents who will let their kids fail in school but buy them toys they cannot afford. This is one example of course,.

I (as everybody knows) work with for some weathly clients. I remember going out to eat at a nice restaraunt and seeing some. So we combined tables, I ordered a big meal, and pigged out. At then end one of my client's offered to pay the bill (which was nice of him of course) but I couldn't accept. First the bill was large and I ordered the food. Not only that but I orded the most expensive item. Just because he has WAY more money then I do, I would never let anybody foot the bill for me.

So I would like to help people (esp childern who are 'iinnocent' but our failed social/liberal programs have done nothing to improve the situation. Giving money to those who are unwilling to work and sacarfice for it (esp when they have childern!) is kind of like inviting a robber into your house. Instead of public healthcare I would rather see a public school system worth a ****. At some point though people have to stand on their own two feet and the truth is that many of them won't.

I don't think you will find a person on either side Democrat or Republic who wouldn't agree that the welfare system is seriously broken but what would you propose? Should we send them all to forced labor camps? There has to be a way to catch these people before they get in this situation and on that front BOTH parties are doing a miserable job. I am still not convinced that these people abusing the system are the majority either, a significant number sure but not the majority...

Frankly this thread seems to be going a lot like our government does, lots of pointing fingers and blaming but very short on solution.......

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

You can't tax your way to prosperity. This is important so I'll repeat it, You can't tax your way to prosperity. You need to grow the economy to achieve prosperity. You need to create good jobs for the people so that they become contributors to our economic system and not drainers of our resources.

As Perot said in '92, the way to eliminate the debt was a robust manufacturing sector with high paying jobs, so that that job growth would increase tax revenues and balance the budget. Am I the only one who sees that the reward system for executives in all these industries incentivises them to send jobs overseas, everything from manufacturing labor, to hardware and software design, to call centers? Is it helping the economy grow for people who had good manufacturing jobs to now work part time at Wal-Mart?

Can't you see that what has happened in the last 25 years is that all those manufacturing jobs have gone away, and the money that they were making is going more and more to the white collar ranks, who have gotten a tax cut and have the accountants (and lawyers like User Name) to exploit tax loopholes?

Sure, not all the CEO's are bad guys. But they are all making tons more money than they did 25 years ago. In the early 80's a CEO made $250,000 to $375,000. Run that thru inflation and that's what today, $500-750,000? Find me a CEO in the Fortune 500 that makes that little. And don't forget all the perks and bonuses that don't show up in the financial statements.

Maybe you can't tax your way to prosperity, maybe we need to regulate our way to prosperity, because all these deregulated industries are all messed up. It's human nature. If everyone could be trusted to do the right thing, we wouldn't need any laws or anything, right?

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by rjstaaf

Frankly this thread seems to be going a lot like our government does, lots of pointing fingers and blaming but very short on solution.......

I have a solution, how about we outlaw avarice in goverment and industry. I'm not advocating socialism, I'm advocating a return to a time when we actually had some statesmen in government, and some people in industry who were concerned with things "greater than their self-interest" to paraphrase one of the candidates. Because it's been looking a lot more like dictatorship and robber barons to me.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

Our tax system today is already grossly punitive towards those very people who are creating our countries wealth and jobs. In case you missed it, many are already leaving the country. Outsourcing is flourishing because of our tax system. If you think things are bad now just watch the outsourcing increase when you raise their taxes by 11.5%. It's our tax system that is turning us into a second rate country. That coupled with our many corrupt congressmen and thousands of special interests.

I have to disagree with you on that. When Reagan was elected, the max Federal tax rate was something like 78%, yet we didn't have huge outsourcing. We had imports, but we didn't have US companies closing their US factories to have their products made overseas.

What has changed is the modern lack of oversight and regulation, which allows the penetration of special interests that you mention. Lack of corporate governance. Consolidation of competitors or of markets that should be kept apart (the confluence of banks, brokers, and insurance, which were once all separate, is arguably at the root of the current bailout, if not in subtance, at least in depth, meaning that a smaller segment would have been affected if these companies were not so large or so overarching).

We could argue this ad infinitum but it's pointless.