Republican or Democrat?

[Bunky]

The problem at the moment is that that tax cut we all got was borrowed from future taxpayers in the form of debt. Living within your means is supposedly a conservative virtue but it seems the republican run congress cannot do that excluding not paying for the wars. They are not much different than the Democrats.. giving stuff away they do not have. You have been bribed with your own money.

Guess what is behind the current financial crisis...DEBT.

[Scottwax]

Originally Posted by dalethompson

l

I really, really, really hope that Americans see what the rest of the world sees in the fact that John McCain and Sarah Palin would be the absolute wrong choice to elect as the next leaders of the U.S. John McCain may not even survive his first term and do you really want an anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-stem cell research, ultra extreme conservative yet inexperienced person running your country. No offense, this would be a big step down from George W. Bush and that's putting it mildly. It actually scares some Canadians (including myself) having our neighbours even contemplate electing such an inexperienced person to such a powerful position... one who doesn't even grasp foreign (including Canadian) politics. In the reference to why someone cares if Canadians want Obama elected, it's because we believe it's in everyone's vested interest to have the best person elected for the job of President. That person, in a lot of Canadian's eyes, is Barack Obama.

Obama has no more experience than Palin does and none of her executive experience. Furthermore, while she has actually been governing the state of Alaska, Obama has been out campaigning for President instead of focusing on his senatorial duties. He's at the top of the ticket, not Palin.

As governor of Alaska, Palin has made no moves to push her personal regious beliefs on the people of Alaska.

The rest of the world can butt out of our political process. It isn't any of your business.

[Scottwax]

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

While I would consider welfare an essential program, I think calling a "flat tax" anything other than a handout to the rich, upper crust is well...foolish.

How is letting people keep more of their money a handout?

Maybe this will illustrate it better.

It seemed that 10 men decided to have a business lunch once a week. They always met in the same restaurant and the bill was always, $100.00, for all 10 men. If each man was responsible for his share of the bill that would be, $10.00, each. The men decided to divide the bill based upon their ability to pay (using the progressive structure of the tax code). Using this formula the following payment arrangement was worked out based upon income.

Men 1-4 who made the least amount of money paid nothing.

Man 5 paid $ 1.00

Man 6 paid $ 3.00

Man 7 paid $ 7.00

Man 8 paid $12.00

Man 9 paid $18.00

Man 10 paid $59.00


After several weeks the owner of the restaurant told the men that because they were such good customers he was reducing the bill by $20.00. Their dilemma was how to divide up the, $20.00. If each person got the same amount then the first 4 men would be getting money back but they never paid anything for the dinners. After much discussion and no resolve the owner offered the following suggestion which they all agreed to.

Original Payment-New Payment-$ Amount Saved-% Saved


Men 1-4 paid $ 0.00 $ 0.00 $0.00 0%


Man 5 paid $ 1.00 $ 0.00 $1.00 100%


Man 6 paid $ 3.00 $ 2.00 $1.00 33%


Man 7 paid $ 7.00 $ 5.00 $2.00 28%


Man 8 paid $12.00 $ 9.00 $3.00 25%


Man 9 paid $18.00 $14.00 $4.00 22%


Man 10 paid $59.00 $50.00 $9.00 15%

Once outside the men began to argue about the settlement. Man 5 said he only got, $1.00, while Man 10 received, $9.00. Men 1-4 were upset because the received nothing. They said that the cut only benefited the rich and the poor got nothing. They were upset so they beat up Man 10 and left him. The next week they met for lunch as usual except man 10 did not show up. When the new bill arrived the men discovered that between them they did not have enough money to pay even half of the bill.

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

While I would consider welfare an essential program, I think calling a "flat tax" anything other than a handout to the rich, upper crust is well...foolish.

Hard to grasp the term "handout" when/if you understand that this is THEIR money. Income they have sweated, labored, risked and strived to earn. It's not a handout if it is their own money in the first place. A handout is when you forcefully take the fruits of their hard earned labor and give it so someone else who did not earn it.

Main Entry: hand·out
Pronunciation: \ˈhand-ˌaut\
Function: noun

1 : a portion of food, clothing, or money given to or as if to a beggar

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by Bunky

The problem at the moment is that that tax cut we all got was borrowed from future taxpayers in the form of debt. Living within your means is supposedly a conservative virtue but it seems the republican run congress cannot do that excluding not paying for the wars. They are not much different than the Democrats.. giving stuff away they do not have. You have been bribed with your own money.

Guess what is behind the current financial crisis...DEBT.

True, except for the fact that for the past two years this has been a Democrat led congress.

Congress (both parties) has a way of spending our money, and our children's and grandchildren's money, to get us to vote for them.

Also a few myths regarding the Bush Tax cuts.
Ten Myths About the Bush Tax Cuts

[Eliot Ness]

Originally Posted by dalethompson

..........Do you see any healthcare providers in the U.S. sending patients to Canada for treatment? ...........

That's the point, we don't have to send patients to another country for treatment.

Originally Posted by dalethompson

...........Contradiction? Depends if you look at it that way I suppose. All I know is that Canadian citizens don't pay for heart surgery, cancer treatments or births...........

There is no such thing as free health care. Bottom line I'd say I pay less for health care than many who think they are getting it for free. Even with all of it's flaws, there is no other country I'd want to be in when I needed complex medical attention than here in the states. You can call me a fool, but free enterprise and profit is one reason we have the abundance of technology in our health care system.

Originally Posted by Scottwax

.........The rest of the world can butt out of our political process. It isn't any of your business.

Frankly put and well said Scott

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by dalethompson

...And, by all mean, vote for McCain and Palin, it's a democratic country and your right to vote for whomever impresses you more. Hey, I just gave my two cents and judging by what I've heard from people here in Toronto, it's a pretty scary prospect possibly electing someone who's so old combined with someone who's so inexperienced. I think it's pretty funny that Canada separates Alaska from the rest of the U.S. and all she's ever done in Canada is hunt lol. As well, kudos to Palin for being able to see Russia from her house... means her fancy designer glasses must be working.

I thought you might be interested in what Ronald Reagan's son, Michael, thinks of Sarah Palin.

Sarah Palin Emerges As New Ronald Reagan
Newsmax.com – Sarah Palin Emerges As New Ronald Reagan

[Scottwax]

Originally Posted by Bunky

The problem at the moment is that that tax cut we all got was borrowed from future taxpayers in the form of debt. Living within your means is supposedly a conservative virtue but it seems the republican run congress cannot do that excluding not paying for the wars. They are not much different than the Democrats.. giving stuff away they do not have. You have been bribed with your own money.

Guess what is behind the current financial crisis...DEBT.

The tax cuts spurred growth after 9/11.

The problem is the spending. There are two areas that Bush has really disappointed me as a conservative. He hasn't pushed hard enough for spending cuts, nor vetoed spending bills that were filled with pork and he is wrong on illegal immigration.

[Corey Bit Spank]

I don't like anybody.

[Holden_C04]

Originally Posted by jfelbab

Hard to grasp the term "handout" when/if you understand that this is THEIR money. Income they have sweated, labored, risked and strived to earn. It's not a handout if it is their own money in the first place. A handout is when you forcefully take the fruits of their hard earned labor and give it so someone else who did not earn it.

Main Entry: hand·out
Pronunciation: \ˈhand-ˌaut\
Function: noun

1 : a portion of food, clothing, or money given to or as if to a beggar

I knew someone would twist my words. When is the last time you saw a rich fella sweat other than at tennis? I mean come on, give me a break.

Wealth has NOTHING to do with effort or labour. I know a lot of poor people who work their butts off all their lives and don't have much to show for it.

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

I knew someone would twist my words. When is the last time you saw a rich fella sweat other than at tennis? I mean come on, give me a break.

Wealth has NOTHING to do with effort or labour. I know a lot of poor people who work their butts off all their lives and don't have much to show for it.

I really was not attempting to twist your words, and if I did a apologize as it was not my attempt. Above all I am enjoying a good respectful discussion and in no way want to cause it to stop.

My point is that like most entrepreneurs, they got there by working 80+ hour weeks, building up thier small business. Success was not handed to them, so to answer your question, I see them sweating all the time. I respectfully reject your notion that wealth has nothing to do with effort.

[dave40co]

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

I knew someone would twist my words. When is the last time you saw a rich fella sweat other than at tennis? I mean come on, give me a break.

Wealth has NOTHING to do with effort or labour. I know a lot of poor people who work their butts off all their lives and don't have much to show for it.

That is THEIR CHOICE to work their butts off. I have worked my butt off for many years and do not have a lot to show for it, maybe I chose the wrong work? I am certainly not expecting someone to give something because I made a bad choice.

Wealth has everything to do with EFFORT and LABOR. If Bill Gates didn't make the effort to build his company, then he wouldn't be wealthy. I don't think anyone endowed him.

I don't know how old you are Holden, but at 21 I thought just like you and at 52 I might not be the sharpest tool in the shed, but I see how this world works. Socialism and Communism are both proven failure forms of government. Democracy is the only one that has survived and worked. Yes, some people will fall through the cracks, but another handout is not going to help the ones who do nothing.