Republican or Democrat?

[Jakerooni]

A perfect example of how idiotic our government is currently going on before the eyes of the world right now. WE have a trillion plus dollar deficiet.... Yet somehow (and god knows how) we are able (the government that is) pull tens of billions of dollars out of our butts to pay off failing companies that obiviously delt in shady practices.... Seriously if we had all these billions upon billions of dollars just chillin out somewhere why isn't out deficit paid off why do our roads suck? Why don;t I have healthcare and why are their homeless people still???

I don't think we could effeciently create a nationwide healthcare plan until we shrink our government by a whole lot. Get the programs running more streamline and cut the fat so to speak. Our government is just to big and to corrupt to be able to do much of anything effeciently anymore.

[Holden_C04]

Hey, I'm still like responding to that thing you posted like two posts ago. Like, duh! Gimme a sec.

[Holden_C04]

Originally Posted by TH0001

Nobody is stealing from me, I am talking about fair...

No scare tatic either, just logical vs. emotional thinking.

My example was very clear, I don't know how to make it clearer. Sacrafice and make more money so the government can redistribute those who haven't... That is how it works correct? The top earners in this country pay the majority of taxes already and that isn't fair on a logical basis. It only becomes fair when emotinal involvment says so.

Taxes should be flat or flatter IMO. The government should provide opportunity for growth and personal achievement, not do it for you. People are not created equally and when you try to raise the bottom up, you end up dragging everybody above them down.

I think this country should reward hard workers and inovators and I agree that it should be easy to start small companies and get education. We have a way to go. What I don't believe in is government hand outs and programs that have been proven to create dependecy vs. bring people that don't want to be up up.

FWIW, in Toronto I broke a finger ice-skating (I grew up in Chicago and know how to skate, fwiw). I went the ER and it was like a 2 day wait... But what do you expect when the government controls it?

First of all, I played hockey for over 10 years competitively (I grew up in a very athletic family) and I never broke a bone. Not once! All I did was have a very slight fracture as a result of a 6"6 guy landing on my chest. Still played tackle football that summer with the fracture...

(Sorry, I had to tease )

I also believe people should be rewarded for innovation. Tell me, what has your government done to help you get started with your small business? What did your Republican government do to help you with your business? Nothing? Or did they manage to fulfill their "business" promises. To me, I see them rewarding the rich and cutting out the middle guys like yourself.

Dependency...That's always an issue. In Canada, we have strict rules regarding welfare and such to prevent that situation. In my time in the States, I saw people cheat the system and basically live off it. It wasn't a lot but still...

It made me think Americans were lazy because I don't know of anyone in Canada that lives that kind of lifestyle.

You're right, not everyone is equal. Care to punish the single mother and prevent her from getting the education she needs to take care of her child? Oh, her fault...right.

[Holden_C04]

Originally Posted by TH0001

Because he is a socialist and I don't believe in it. Also, you have to admit, it is scary that basically ten years of his life are unacounted for.. Also he has less experience executively then the VP of the other party which he slams for being inexperienced.

I really don't want to give McCain a chance either because he is a flopper then same as John Kerry. And I don't think either Palin or Obama have enough experience to be taken seriously in this election.

I will likely vote McCain but much rather have voted for Ron Paul.

At least McCain doesn't terrify me like Bush does, or the VP-elect.

Originally Posted by TH0001

^Hasn't been to a public school or a DMV yet

Nope, you're right. Not one of yours, anyway. Seriously, though, copy Canada. We won't mind.

[Greg Nichols]

I lived in Canada for 2 years, and use the socialized med up there, it SUCKED! It took two weeks to get blood tests back, 1 week for the xrays to be read, and months to get into a specialists. Its just not worth it to me.

The US gov sucks when it comes to trying to have a say in public education, hell its not even their responsibility..............its a states consitutional responsiblity not federal.

Like most things the FEDS make mandates and then don't fund them. Both parties are guilty of that.

[Devilsown]

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

Universal Health Care

Better?

NOPE! Have fun waiting in line if we get health care for everyone... I think if we stop helping the rest of the world or stop playing police with the world... for one year and concentrate on OUR probloms.... we might see a change... also let us get some better military gear... more personel and up to date aircraft (BOMBER!)

[MikeWinLDS]

Originally Posted by TH0001

I don't think the government's job is provide thier version of equalibrium. I mean we have seen how well that has worked with dozens of failed programs.

In this country, with the access to grants, scholarships, and education, I believe everybody has a shot to work hard and reap the benefits. Want to be "upper class", go to school, and devote everything in your life to being "upper class". Work two, three jobs, save every penny, invest it, keep learning and advancing, you can get there.

What I don't think it fair is when the government steps in and plays Robin Hood. I know a lot of people that have a lot of money, and I know that almost every one of the them have made HUGE sacrafices. Then the government says, "Thanks for sacraficing your life for the money we are now going to give to the people who haven't made those sacrafices"

For example, if I wanted so desprately to be upper-class, I could be. I would have to sacrafice sleep, time, time with my wife, time with my son, etc.. Work a couple jobs, life frugely, and invest my money wisely. In 20 years I will be "rich". But then for 20 years I won't have much of a life.

What isn't fair is when the government decides that somebody else, who has spent twenty years having fun and enjoying life defaults on a morgage that they signed, and they government decides to use my sacraficed time's money to support them.

Or when the lady who have never worked a day in her life and has six kids gets a cut of my hard earned money. That isn't fair. She wouldn't have made the sacrafices...

Just my two cents...

Originally Posted by bert31

In the US I believe the highest earning 5% pay something like 70% of all income taxes. It may be higher, I will have to check. In reality, the middle class pays very little in income taxes, the lower class pay virtually no income taxes. If the government starts providing more services, then EVERYONE should pay for them not just the high earners. Hence why I am against Obama raising taxes again on the wealthiest 5%. Why don't we just encourage the high earners (therefore high tax payers) to leave the US and go to Carribean nations which charge much lower taxes. It is already happening to some degree already. If I am not mistaking, Monaco is a nation full of wealthy people who fled the high tax nations in Europe.

The top 5% controls our country, and they already are leaving our country. Why do you think American jobs are moving overseas now? Go look up Environmental Racism while you're at it, or maybe monocropping. These greedy capatalists are not only destroying other third-world countries, but they are destroying our own countries.

As wages continue to fall and our poverty rate increases, how do you expect people to purchase these products that are being made in third-world countries and then being shipped back home? Consumers will stop buying from these companies, the third-world workers will be out of a job, and these companies that are the backbone of our economy will collapse.

When you're talking about the elite, upper class the small 1-5%, you're talking about the CEOs and big wigs that are exploiting not only our people and other countries all for the sake of a dime. Their pockets are getting bigger and bigger exponentially while the rest of the world is getting poorer. And from what I understand, the tax increase will only be for those who earn above $250k under Obama's plan, but don't quote me on that, since that's what I've heard from other people and haven't had time to research yet.

And this has nothing to do with people working hard and making money for themselves. That's good, good for you. You'll find that more and more people are going back to school now, graduate school, in order to stay viable in this economy. The majority of the jobs that are left are now in the service sector, and you don't get paid very much flipping burgers. People working full-time now at 50+ hours a week are still considered poor by today's standards.

More and more old people are now re-entering the work force, not because they didn't work hard enough in their life, but because they are forced to just to be able to afford health care through the company they work for, i.e. greeters at Wal-Mart. So it's nothing to do with the middle class, because that's what you are, middle class.

When you are talking about the upper class, you have got to be specific here. If you think a doctor or lawyer is upper class, well in my opinion you would be very wrong. I know plenty of doctors and lawyers that don't make anywhere close to what these CEOs and big wigs are making, the true 5% of our country. There is a stark contrast from someone in the upper middle class making $250,000 compared to someone in the elite, upper class who makes $250,000,000.

These doctors and lawyers, all these people obtaining doctorate degrees and whatnot just to stay viable in our economy are part of the upper middle class, the same class (middle class) you and I are a part of. The upper class consists of those with corporate ownership and elite education, which is often inherited.

It's hard to work your way into that class when there are so many social and economic systems in place to maintain the status quo. These people have so much money that they can pocket politicians and write policies by proxy to keep them rich from where the phrase the rich get richer as the poor get poorer.

So to answer the question anyway, I'm an independent. I don't vote on party lines, because that is plain outright stupidity. Look at the issues, and more importantly look and see whom the lobbyists are supporting. It's sad to see how money and politics go hand and hand in our government, but that's the truth. As for this election, it's still the lesser of two evils, just like it always is.

[Scottwax]

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

I don't see why you guys consider the US government so incompetent?
(actually I do...but maybe they'll do better on these issues with a different administration?)

Why not give Obama a try and see if things head in a better direction?

It has nothing to do with who is the president. It has to do with inept beauracracy.

No way in the world would I consider voting for Obama. Change to socialism is not what I want.

[Scottwax]

Originally Posted by MikeWinLDS

And from what I understand, the tax increase will only be for those who earn above $250k under Obama's plan, but don't quote me on that, since that's what I've heard from other people and haven't had time to research yet.

I don't feel like staying up all night on this so I will just address this point for now. My brother has a computer business that should gross $900,000 this year. Taxes, labor, equipment costs, rental on his building, insurance, etc will be around $800,000. That leaves him a grand total of around $100,000 between him and his wife. If his taxes go up, he isn't going to sell his house and eat ramen. He will be letting go some of his staff or raising his prices. Neither is an appealing option since both have the potential to hurt his business. Either they are short staffed or their prices might be too much for many of their current customers.

In addition, why should someone be punished through taxes for being successful? The top 1% of all wage earners pay around 30% of all federal income tax while the bottom 50% pay just under 4% (according to the IRS). The wealthy are already paying far more than their fair share. It isn't the wealthy who should be having to deal with less, it is our ever expanding federal government and their refusal to adhere to their power as outlined in the 10th ammendment.

Just curious, why the venom towards CEOs? Didn't Steve Jobs and Bill Gates spawn a huge industry that has greatly benefited us all? Look at all the jobs that have resulted from the personal computer. Look at all the wealth that has been created not just for them but for related companies and even someone like my brother who is still a relatively small business owner. Not every CEO bilks their own company, underpays their employees or exploits kids in Latin America or China. The vast majority of them run their businesses ethically.

What about actors in Hollywood? What about them making millions of dollars per movie? The guy filling your overpriced tub of popcorn is probably making minimum wage or a little more. Where is the outrage over that disparity? What about pro athletes making millions of dollars per game?

Even though I don't make that kind of money, you start taxing what used to be disposable income for my high end clients and my detailing business is going to be among the first cutbacks they make.

[MikeWinLDS]

Originally Posted by Scottwax

It has nothing to do with who is the president. It has to do with inept beauracracy.

No way in the world would I consider voting for Obama. Change to socialism is not what I want.

I am interested in what you mean by socialism, because I know a lot of people throw this term around when they truly mean communism. I'm still researching the differences between the two, but I find it funny how people will throw out anti-socialism propoganda in the news and whatnot when they are actually talking about communism, a corrupt form of socialism as far as I understand it now.

Here's something I found on Yahoo Answers from other people's answers about it. I'll have to get back to this when I find out more about what makes it different.

What is the difference between socialism and communism? - Yahoo! Answers

True communism involves a complete removal of class structure and hierarchy. Ideally, all people would have full access to everything they need with the opportunity to earn things they want (luxuries). Everyone works for the common good, and all wealth is distributed equally. All ownership is by the people (state) including land and industry. It's based on the notion that crime and strife are the result of unfulfilled needs. If a person is provided all they need and works a fair amount for it, then there would be no need or reason for crime or fighting.

None of the major "communist" regimes have practiced true communism as governments require a centralized power structure. Where you have power, you have corruption. So what they ended up with was a style of fascism.

Communism has succeeded on a micro scale, providing small communities in Israel, called Kibbutz, a model which enables the common defense as well as economic benefits for all its members. Kibbutz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Socialism is involves the state providing essential services to protect the rights of the populace. These rights include things such as education, often through college level, health care, and police and fire protection, as well as social security for the retired poor or disabled, and a welfare system to prevent people falling into unrecoverable poverty with an opportunity to return to work. Socialist societies control some industries which maintain roads, military, and health care while regulating all other industries to provide protection for workers and communities. It also supports a progressive redistribution of wealth ensuring a strong middle class, the backbone of its economic model.

Socialism is one of the most, if not the most, successful socio-economic models. It's practiced throughout Western Europe and where many of the countries provide a much higher standard of living and much better economic advantages than the US.
Countries with Highest Standard of Living

Because they it takes more of the burden of cost of essential needs while providing a higher overall standard of education to its entire populace, Socialism tends to enhance and provide greater liberties and freedom to its citizens.

[Holden_C04]

Originally Posted by MikeWinLDS

I am interested in what you mean by socialism, because I know a lot of people throw this term around when they truly mean communism. I'm still researching the differences between the two, but I find it funny how people will throw out anti-socialism propoganda in the news and whatnot when they are actually talking about communism, a corrupt form of socialism as far as I understand it now.

Here's something I found on Yahoo Answers from other people's answers about it. I'll have to get back to this when I find out more about what makes it different.

Socialism and Communism are completely different forms of government and I don't think he was mistaken in the use of Socialism.

Socialism is this idea of a capitalistic economy with general heavy taxes and a high level of social services. These type of governments often provide free health care (to tax-paying citizens), sometimes dental care, and also a quality school system. They also discourage doubles of social services like private health care and schools to prevent decay of the public sector. Examples of socialist countries include the UK and Sweden.

Communism is a completely different system from Socialism that was developed by a man named Karl Marx. His book was called The Communist Manifesto. It is generally considered a Utopian-style of government where the country takes care of you "From the Cradle unto the Grave" and "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need." The idea being that everyone contributes as much as they can, and everyone takes only what they need. There is a large government beauracracy to handle the infrastructure and there are no/few private corporations. Although there are a large number of governments whom identify themselves as Communist, there are no current examples of such a government in place according to the Communist Manifesto.

[Slickery]

How could Republicans even remain loyal to the Party considering the principals of the Republican Party have long since been destroyed by these people calling themselves Republicans! They are so damn fiscally irresponsible, the party has destroyed this country. They have deregulated us into a very scary time where someday your energy bill and cable bill will be more than your mortgage. They have plummeted us into debt we will never pay back, only a severe jask ask would cut taxes and go to war. Trust me universal healthcare would have been way cheaper then any of the idiot things this clown is doing, bailing out everyone and borrowing a trillion dollars from China to wage a useless war. I was a Republican, but never again. Bring on the Dimms or someone else, anyone else. Anarchy would be a step up from modern Republicans.