Obama or McCain?

[Holden_C04]

Originally Posted by TH0001

Kind of the beaten path but I have heard RUMOURS that Obama doesn't have a birth certificate in the US, and that it is very likely that he was born in Kenya. Maybe a stupid question, but is there any truth to this?

Do you always believe what you hear? Ever stop to wonder why a rumour like that would start?

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by rjstaaf

Quick Google search produced an image of his Hawaii birth certificate on the La Times....

Barack Obama's birth certificate revealed here | Top of the Ticket | Los Angeles Times

He has said publicly that he was born in Hawaii, this is something easy enough to verify so I seriously doubt he is lying about it...

I mean that's obviously a fake...in the lower left corner of the form, it shows the form was created in 2001, fully 40 years after Obama purportedly was born. I am quite sure he was born in Kenya, because I have seen more than one email attesting to that. I am constantly amazed at how gullible the public is.

Just like in the middle of this horrible financial crisis, when John McCain is trying to get us out of this mess, which was clearly caused by the Democrats (as is clearly shown by some of the posts in this thread), people are now accusing McCain of being one of the "Keating 5" senators accused of corruption in the S&L scandal of the 80's. Can you believe that!

Now--Zaino or NXT?!

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by TH0001

Kind of the beaten path but I have heard RUMOURS that Obama doesn't have a birth certificate in the US, and that it is very likely that he was born in Kenya. Maybe a stupid question, but is there any truth to this?

It's not a stupid question. But why does it matter where he was born? We are a nation of immigrants, does anyone here except the American Indians among us claim that they don't have ancestry born outside of this country?

A legitimate reason for asking this is the US birth requirement for the office of President. I can't say the Democratic party hasn't done plenty of stupid stuff, but nominating someone to run for president for their party, who can't legally do so would be taking the cake, don't you think?

[jfelbab]

Originally Posted by TH0001

Kind of the beaten path but I have heard RUMOURS that Obama doesn't have a birth certificate in the US, and that it is very likely that he was born in Kenya. Maybe a stupid question, but is there any truth to this?

There is a pending lawsuit filed over this but I believe the claim to be false. I find it hard to believe that Obama would not have been fully vetted prior to his running for the Senate.

The person filing this suit, one Philip Berg, is a Philly lawyer and a democrat.

Here is a link to the suit and a lengthy discussion: PHILIP J. BERG v. BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA - Complaint

[TH0001]

Originally Posted by Holden_C04

Do you always believe what you hear? Ever stop to wonder why a rumour like that would start?

If I believed everything I heard, then why would I ASK a question?

I would have repeated it like it was the truth, instead I thought it sounded stupid, and I respect a lot of people who post here (and have enjoyed Setec's responses) so I figured why not ask?

[Holden_C04]

Originally Posted by TH0001

If I believed everything I heard, then why would I ASK a question?

I would have repeated it like it was the truth, instead I thought it sounded stupid, and I respect a lot of people who post here (and have enjoyed Setec's responses) so I figured why not ask?

Didn't mean it to come across that way. Sorry. But...yeah, the idea of such a thing is ridiculous and a strange smear tactic.

[Bunky]

The message I get from some here is that we had almost 8 yrs of republicans controlling all branches (more in the previous years in the house) yet every failure is due to Democrats. I agree the Dem's more than some Republicans have been trying to make housing more affordable (not a bad idea in concept). If Mae/Mac had been a private company and saw the same thing, we still would have bailed them out as we did with AIG.

This is how politics works.

Many dem's are no saints but there are plenty of republicans doing the same thing. The GOP got viritually every bill passed they wanted. If it did not pass, it was due to significant republican defections. The problem is that neither side will turn people in...McCain has been vocal about "special interests" but they sure are not naming names.

The congress just passed a $600+ Billion spending bill loaded with the usual pork projects and tax incentives.

[Jakerooni]

Uggg. The democrats did not cause this housing mess. Quit shifting the blame. Even if Clinton passed a bill to loosen the credit requirements thats didn't force any bank anywhere to give out such stupid loans. This mess is 100% the fault of bad leaderships and descion making of the banks. Not the Democrats Not the Repblicans. This is not a political issue (even though it's becoming one) this is bad business 101. A couple years ago we tossed CEO's that did this in a dark cell (the ones that didn't die before sentecing) Now we're handing over billions to help them out. Just because this is an election year dosen't make every single issue this country goes through a political one. You want to blame someone??? Blame those actually responsible.. Not the political agenda's of those trying to get elected.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by Jakerooni

This is not a political issue (even though it's becoming one) this is bad business 101. A couple years ago we tossed CEO's that did this in a dark cell (the ones that didn't die before sentecing) Now we're handing over billions to help them out. Blame those actually responsible.. Not the political agenda's of those trying to get elected.

Nice call. Everytime I suggest that maybe today's CEO's aren't the captains of industry they used to be, I get accused of being a communist. Once upon a time it was the CEO's responsibility to make sure the company was doing the right things, and not buying bad paper, etc. Now what is their responsibility...to lobby for bailouts when they get caught being stupid?

And before you guys jump all over me about how these poor CEO's and companies didn't know they were bad mortgages...when a guy tries to sell you a $1000 TV out of the trunk of his car for $100, do you have a reasonable expectation that that TV is stolen? When your business is finance and somebody tries to sell you a bunch of mortgages cheap, it's your job to do a smell check.

EDIT: It's like a pro detailer here taking a swirled car but quoting a low price because the owner told him "they're just light swirls", and then blaming the customer for the detailer not being able to properly evaluate the job. It's the financial industry CEO's job to assess the risks they are taking and the investments they are making, just as the detailer must assess the car before he quotes the job.

[jfelbab]

Let me see if I get this. Banks and mortgage lenders make the loans and based on their cash/debt ratio at the time keep or sell the notes. Many of these loans get sold to F&F. The original lender keeps, buys or sells the notes to maintain their debt ratio and cash on hand at proscribed levels. F&F would take these notes, bundle them and sell them to other banks and financial institutions who buy and sell them to maintain their debt ratio and cash ratio optimized. F&F assumed that the loans were properly examined and the banks assumed that when they were buying these loan packages from F&F that they were government backed and secure.

OK, now our government passes a regulation that orders the banks and lenders to offer loans to those that don't quite qualify (sub-prime). These banks and lenders are threatened that if they failed to do so they would be fined and or be put out of business. Ok, now the game changes. Now the banks and lenders know that they are lending money that they will likely never get back. You suddenly see the logic of selling certain of these "sub-prime" notes to F&F because they are the ones pressuring you to make these questionable loans in the first place. Fine, so now when the banks buy these bundles from F&F they assumed that the loans were backed by the US government. What they missed was that not only were they peddling the bad paper to the F&F, so was every other bank and lender and much of what they were buying was junk paper.

At the same time the lender was seeing housing values surging as the number of home buyers increased. Year after year home prices were increasing at a rapid pace. Some areas were seeing home values double in a year or two. So offering a NINJA loan on a home with the expected home value on the rise did not seem all that risky even if there were an occasional default.

Then one day the economy stumbled. Housing starts slumped, Home sales stagnated, jobs were going away. The housing market bubble had burst. Home values plummeted, often by as much as 50% of the original purchase price. Now the banks were seeing a problem. They had a lot of outstanding loans on the books on properties that were almost worthless as there were no buyers. Banks and lenders don't make good home owners. Foreclosures surged. Banks and lenders were selling these sub-prime notes to maintain their cash balance and F&F was buying. Home owners had huge mortgages on homes now worth half of what they paid for them. Many notes they held were ARM's and rates were surging through the roof. Time to sell, but it's almost impossible to sell when ten homes on your block are owned by those in the same financial bind, doing the same thing. Time to file for bankruptcy.

It is not too hard to see how an innocuous decision to "social engineer" our country sounded like a great thing. After all, who could be against home ownership for everyone? Who indeed? Bush, McCain, Greenspan, and a whole list of financial experts saw this very crisis and tried to stop the madness. Sad to say they were accused of racism and not caring about the poor in our country. After all, the dream of "home ownership" should belong to every American, right? Well the correct answer was "wrong". Not everyone should own a home as they can't all afford one, and here we are today with the government becoming the largest homeowner in the US. Tens of thousands of boarded up homes causing a blight in neighborhoods. Who is maintaining these foreclosed properties? They are an eyesore and becoming a scourge in many neighborhoods and Uncle Sam is the property owner.

Throwing money at the problem may make the market pick up for a while but the infection is spreading throughout thousands of cities around the US. Boarded up homes turning into drug houses, and crime scenes. Who is fixing the roof leak and the burst water pipe? Who is getting rid of the rodents, and caring for the home? How many homes are foreclosed in your city? We are seeing an excessive supply of homes and a lack of buyers. Will this $700B bailout change that? I think not. Clearly, we can't give loans to those that can't pay them back. Tried that and it didn't work. So where will the buyers of these foreclosed, boarded up homes come from? Lets look at the demographics. The buyers won't come from the baby boomers who are at an age where they will be downsizing and/or selling their homes. What about the younger group. Well, many are struggling with the job market and lack of credit worthiness caused by this crisis.

The only scenario that seems likely to me is that housing prices will continue to spiral down, possibly dramatically. Eventually it may reach a point where even those who couldn't afford a $200k home can now afford to buy that same home for $100k. If you can find people with decent jobs. But many of our jobs are leaving the US. Our tax structure for businesses in the US is extremely punitive, two to three times higher than in most other countries. Hard not to see why there is an exodus of jobs under this tax structure. So how do you fix that? Looks like only one candidate is talking about cutting the tax on businesses. The other is taking about increasing taxes on businesses. Your vote may just determine if our jobs go or stay.

Hang on the ride is about to start.

[BigAl3]

just a heads up.... The second presidential debate is scheduled for Oct. 7 and a third on Oct. 15.

[Bunky]

The birth certificate story....

PolitiFact | Obama's birth certificate: Final chapter

FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A.