Obama or McCain?

[TH0001]

Originally Posted by User Name

Funny and so prototypically "republican" it is too easy to respond to. By in large, the USA gives lower per capita payouts in welfare to most of it western allies, you know what the result is? Lower crime, higher literacy, stronger public education etc...

However, that only tells half the story. It's not just about welfare payment being succesful, it's about a whole host of issues and since I am not party driven, I can hit them all. It's about funding education, but also about rewarding good teachers (notice, both ideas take from both parties).

I think both parties should agree that some level of welfare reform is absolutey needed. However to use Sweden as example, at some level, doesn't work. Though I have never been to Sweden (and I have travelled) I would assume that the problems they have are not the same exact problem that others face, and vice a versa.

I don't agree with Obama saying we should spread the wealth, because frankly, I don't believe that is the American way. I think the fact that America has avoided this level of thinking is why, as you say, we have had the most powerful economy in the world.

It's about helping others out, so they can help themselves out. It's about society helping out one another while still encouraging personal responsibility. It's about using the strongest economy the world has ever seen to make everyone as succesful as they can be as a group. So the cures are neither on the left or right, the answer is taking from both, where appropriate.

This is what I don't understand (and I'm not even saying your wrong, I'm just ignorant on certain details). If we have the strongest economy the world has ever seen, why rush to be like everybody else? I think everybody else would be rushing to be like us. I agree that the best solution likely comes from a combination of both parties and from an open flow of ideas between two slightly different ideologies.

Yes, that is why consumer spending indexes are so important in our economy.

Yes, but you actually have to read it, not Newt Gingrich's "talking points".

While I do applaud you on a level for making up your own mind, you are not nearly as 'open minded' or 'free thinking' as you claim to be because you subltey put down people who disagree with your view point. That isn't free thinking or open minded, that is hubris.

Or maybe the blind, the old, the wounded and the addicted. We should just cast them all into a pit and "breed" success into our society.

LOL!!!

Nobody suggested that. Childish responses don't strengthen your position.

Yes, I can see in places like Sweden your statement is absolutely false. Let me ask you a serious question, Mr. 1948, how often have you travelled outside of the US and where? If you have (which I highly doubt), haven't you ever learned that sometimes others do things better than us?

What works for Sweden will not work for the US and vice a versa. Why do you feel the need to look to other, less successful nations (as a whole) to justify points? See you subtely show how closed minded you are, anybody who disagrees with you must not have traveled because other wise how could they disagree with you? That is actually a very close minded approach so stop fooling yourself.

Yes and here I am today, not harping on "how great I am" and how "lazy the others must be".

No but you have said "how great I am that I have travelled any my view points are so open minded" and how "those who haven't done exactly what I have done are close minded"

It wasn't meant to impress you, just to show you that you really don't have a firm grasp of some issues.

Or people have a different opinion then yours. However, once again, you subltey put down those who don't agree with you, putting yourself on some all seeing, sayer like level of understanding. Actually your opinions are just that, yours, and really no more important or better then anybody elses.

Yes, because democratic socialism is SOOOOOOO scary. LOL

At some level it is.

[TH0001]

Originally Posted by dave40co

I love the fact that despite the overwhelming support for McCain in our poll, that the National polls are leaning to Obama.......... Hmm........ Something to think about. I was called by Rueters and when I told them I approved of Bush and the war in Iraq they hung up on me! Kerry, Gore and McGovern were all ahead by 5-8 points on election day and lost. May the best man win and I will vote for the war veteran over the community organizer.

This isn't unlike some other forums I have been too, where McCain is leading as well.

Like I said before, the polls tend to always favor the democrat leading up to the race, and like in 04 (Bush by a landslide) they have proven to be very inaccurate.

[Bunky]

Originally Posted by TH0001

This isn't unlike some other forums I have been too, where McCain is leading as well.

Like I said before, the polls tend to always favor the democrat leading up to the race, and like in 04 (Bush by a landslide) they have proven to be very inaccurate.

Gore won the popular vote in 2000. It was Florida that made the difference and the Supreme Court (vote split along party lines in a case) decided that. The Bush landslide in 04 was really an electoral college statement. When you think that 40% still voted for the loser, that is a lot of people. By some standards yes, when 4 out of 10 disagree on something, it is hardly a landslide in my opinion.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by dave40co

I have had enough of your lawyer double speak B.S. When you show me that you have given up your old maple leaf flag and swear allegiance to the U.S.A., then, sir, you will have the right to tell me and my fellow AMERICANS how to vote. If you are not happy with the American way of life and OUR policies, then take your American wife and your American children back to Canada. My family has spilled blood in EVERY war we have had. You may be the best lawyer in New York but you DO NOT have a right to tell ME how to vote. Go ahead and make fun of a MAN that served his country, did you serve yours? Or are you confused as to where you belong. This post may get me banned for attacking you but I will not shed any tears over it! GOD BLESS AMERICA and damn anyone living here and enjoying the fruits of MY ancestors that make hating it a "sport." Shame on you and your shallow views.

As I said to you once before, what you wrote doesn't bother me in the least (big first amendment supporter here), but I can say proudly that most Americans I know, do not share in your feelings. Most Americans I know are PROUD and TOLERANT people, who don't need me to wrap myself in the American flag to be accepted. However, instead of belaboring the point, why not read this article to see where you've gone wrong.

This was in my morning paper today and it applies to people like you. You are not a patriot, you are a nationalist and that is nothing to be proud of.

NorthJersey.com: Patriotism is not to be confused with nationalism

[User Name]

For the record dave40co SHOULD NOT be banned or suspended or anything. I think anything he wrote to me is fair game and non-offensive and actually worth talking about, so I hope the mods consider this and allow this discussion to continue because it is quite good in my opinion.

[User Name]

Originally Posted by TH0001

I think both parties should agree that some level of welfare reform is absolutey needed.

How about corporate welfare reform?

However to use Sweden as example, at some level, doesn't work. Though I have never been to Sweden (and I have travelled) I would assume that the problems they have are not the same exact problem that others face, and vice a versa.

I would say they share many of the same problems we share, although immigration was the single biggest concern for most Swedes when I was there.

I don't agree with Obama saying we should spread the wealth

Sorry Todd, but it is time to squash this myth with fact. There has been "wealth spreading" in the US, the only problem is, not the kind you think.

The last 30 years have featured a massive redistribution of wealth in America from everybody else to the top one percent, and, much more radically, the top one-tenth of one percent (that is, the richest thousandth) of Americans.

Consider these figures from the Economic Policy Institute. In 1979, the top one percent of wage earners made 9.4 times as much, on average, as the bottom 90 percent of the populace. This ratio had remained virtually unchanged since the end of World War II.

Meanwhile, the top one-tenth of one percent made 21 times as much as the bottom 90 percent — again, a ratio that had barely budged in the postwar period.

Since then the income ratio of the top one percent relative to the bottom 90 percent has doubled, thus making it about the same as what the ratio of the top one-tenth of one percent to the bottom 90 percent was for the first 35 years of the postwar period.

That's startling enough, but the most radical redistribution of income has been at the very top of the economic pyramid. The top one-tenth of one percent now enjoys a wage ratio approximately 70 times that of the bottom 90 percent — an astounding generational transfer of literally trillions of dollars from nine out of 10 Americans to the super-rich. NorthJersey.com: The grand tradition of redistributing wealth

We already have a redistribution of wealth... it goes from the poor the the super rich.

This is what I don't understand (and I'm not even saying your wrong, I'm just ignorant on certain details). If we have the strongest economy the world has ever seen, why rush to be like everybody else?

This is the point your missing... yes, we have the strongest economy in the world, but by all reputable markers, we don't share in the highest standard of living in the world. To me, that should be the defining marker. It shouldn't be that the US has more billionaires than any country in the world. It shouldn't be that the US has the biggest divide between rich and poor.

It should be about this place being the best place on the planet for EVERYONE who lives here.

I think everybody else would be rushing to be like us.

Well, I think you are right, in part. I think a lot of the countries that have surpassed us in the "standard of living index" have taken example from the best parts of America and left back the not so good parts. We should do the same.

I agree that the best solution likely comes from a combination of both parties and from an open flow of ideas between two slightly different ideologies.

I think that is completely fair, but unfettered capitalism (aka "dergulation" of everything) is certainly NOT the answer.

While I do applaud you on a level for making up your own mind, you are not nearly as 'open minded' or 'free thinking' as you claim to be because you subltey put down people who disagree with your view point. That isn't free thinking or open minded, that is hubris.

Actually, I think it is just sarcasm. Unlike many of you, I don't take myself, or internet forums too seriously. I enjoy the banter, it takes my mind of dreadful things, like work.

What works for Sweden will not work for the US and vice a versa.

Why not? They are human, they have goals and values and children they want to see grow up as useful citizens.

Why do you feel the need to look to other, less successful nations (as a whole) to justify points?

By what measure are you defining success? I use generally accepted international bodies who take in account a multitude of factors to conclude a "standard of living" measure.

See you subtely show how closed minded you are, anybody who disagrees with you must not have traveled because other wise how could they disagree with you? That is actually a very close minded approach so stop fooling yourself.

Well, let me put it to you this way... when you walk through Paris, it is inconceivable that you won't appreciate a city which is living art. When you walk through Stockholm, you get a feeling that you might be in the safest city on the planet, when you are in NYC, the electricity of place just runs through your veins. When in Melbourne, you can't help but to feel the hospitality. Toronto and cleanliness go hand in hand. London means character to me, along with tea and crumpets.

My point is this... if you travel abroad, with an open mind, it is hard not to see that others do some things better than we do. If you've travelled the world and you can't see that, even not to the same extent as I have, than you're just lying to yourself. But if you haven't travelled, what do you have to compare with?

No but you have said "how great I am that I have travelled any my view points are so open minded" and how "those who haven't done exactly what I have done are close minded"

I never speak of my greatness (except for the little note under my avatar - lol). What I do know is this... I would NEVER trust a vegatarian from birth to tell me that a particular steak was not very good. That is my point with travelling abroad.

Or people have a different opinion then yours. However, once again, you subltey put down those who don't agree with you, putting yourself on some all seeing, sayer like level of understanding. Actually your opinions are just that, yours, and really no more important or better then anybody elses.

Wrong. I was discussing legal issues because he claimed he was a lawyer. There are certainly universal truths in the law, certain "black letter" items which are deemed doctrine. His failure to grasp those matters suggesting a lack of understanding of the greater issues.

For example, if I don't understand the meaning of "negligence", how can I endeavor to undertake successful civil litigation? I think at the very least, if we posit an opinion based on legal principles, it is only fair we understand those principles.

At some level it is.

And you know this how?

[TortoiseAWD]

Originally Posted by dave40co

Either you are an American or something else. I am sorry to say, would you NON-Americans please keep you views to yourself! Once again I expect to lose my posting rights! Sorry, David, but I have just stated how I feel! My family has spilled to much blood to let me allow what I am seeing here from NON-Americans.

Autopia is an international forum, and ALL (polite) opinions are welcome. You are not the arbiter of who may and may not comment in this thread.

And you're right, you're quite close to being banned. You can either change your tone and debate in a civil manner, or be gone.

Tort
(moderator)

P.S. That goes for everyone posting in this thread. Keep the discussion about politics and the politicians, not each other.

[TH0001]

Originally Posted by User Name

How about corporate welfare reform?

Don't know.

I would say they share many of the same problems we share, although immigration was the single biggest concern for most Swedes when I was there.

I think immigration should be a concern for the US as well.

Sorry Todd, but it is time to squash this myth with fact. There has been "wealth spreading" in the US, the only problem is, not the kind you think.

Please don't guess as to what I think. What I think is that instead of giving money from the rich to the poor (who already burnen a huge amount of the tax share), we should invest the extra money into creating oppotunity for ALL American's to succeed, not to hand them the money.

The last 30 years have featured a massive redistribution of wealth in America from everybody else to the top one percent, and, much more radically, the top one-tenth of one percent (that is, the richest thousandth) of Americans.

Consider these figures from the Economic Policy Institute. In 1979, the top one percent of wage earners made 9.4 times as much, on average, as the bottom 90 percent of the populace. This ratio had remained virtually unchanged since the end of World War II.

Your history is likely better then mine and I concede that point. I do know that in '79 inflation was at an all time high. I know that when Reagen insituted the trickle down economic plan that the government increased its tax revenue by a huge margin. I think there has to be balance, because not all of it trickles down.

Meanwhile, the top one-tenth of one percent made 21 times as much as the bottom 90 percent — again, a ratio that had barely budged in the postwar period.

More incentive to be rich I suppose?

Am I wrong or are they (the upper crust if you will) still not paying far more in taxes then I am?

We already have a redistribution of wealth... it goes from the poor the the super rich.

I don't see it that way. I see it as the rich are already supporting a huge share. Instead of dragging down the rich, we should should work to build everybody. However, the greatest myth in the world is that all men are created equal-. The reality is that some are lawyers (maybe the best in New Jersey), some are doctors, some are bums and wash cars.. All we can do is create equal opporunity and do the best we can to give the right to PURSUE happiness. Those who don't take advantage of the opportunity will live with their consequences.

To some point, I feel more sorry for the starving in Africa vs. in the US, because they don't have opportunity. In the US, anything is possible.

This is the point your missing... yes, we have the strongest economy in the world, but by all reputable markers, we don't share in the highest standard of living in the world. To me, that should be the defining marker. It shouldn't be that the US has more billionaires than any country in the world. It shouldn't be that the US has the biggest divide between rich and poor.

Great point, and one that I actually agree with you on.

It should be about this place being the best place on the planet for EVERYONE who lives here.

Here is our fundamental difference. I don't think that we should make it best place for EVERYONE by giving the hand outs. We should create opportunties for those who choose to make it the best place on Earth to do so.

Well, I think you are right, in part. I think a lot of the countries that have surpassed us in the "standard of living index" have taken example from the best parts of America and left back the not so good parts. We should do the same.

Learning is a cycle, so I agree to a point.

I think that is completely fair, but unfettered capitalism (aka "dergulation" of everything) is certainly NOT the answer.

I agree.

Actually, I think it is just sarcasm. Unlike many of you, I don't take myself, or internet forums too seriously. I enjoy the banter, it takes my mind of dreadful things, like work.

Sometimes you are hard to read.

Well, let me put it to you this way... when you walk through Paris, it is inconceivable that you won't appreciate a city which is living art. When you walk through Stockholm, you get a feeling that you might be in the safest city on the planet, when you are in NYC, the electricity of place just runs through your veins. When in Melbourne, you can't help but to feel the hospitality. Toronto and cleanliness go hand in hand. London means character to me, along with tea and crumpets.

I don't like NYC (Chicago boy) and I thought Paris smelled like a sewer.

My point is this... if you travel abroad, with an open mind, it is hard not to see that others do some things better than we do. If you've travelled the world and you can't see that, even not to the same extent as I have, than you're just lying to yourself. But if you haven't travelled, what do you have to compare with?

I never speak of my greatness (except for the little note under my avatar - lol). What I do know is this... I would NEVER trust a vegatarian from birth to tell me that a particular steak was not very good. That is my point with travelling abroad.

Thank you for clarifying. When you are not being a smartass you make very thoughtful posts.

[TortoiseAWD]

Originally Posted by dave40co

I love the fact that despite the overwhelming support for McCain in our poll, that the National polls are leaning to Obama.......... Hmm........

An accurate poll requires a random sample of a population. Statistics isn't just a way to twist facts (though that's a popular use for it), it's science.

Sources of Bias in Survey Sampling

The poll in this thread is limited to members of Autopia, *and* to those who chose to respond to the poll. The only conclusion that you can draw from it is that members of Autopia who chose to respond favor McCain. It's impossible to extrapolate anything from the poll other than that, because it's a bad sample.

"There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics." -- Benjamin Disraeli, Mark Twain, Alfred Marshall, etc.

Tort
Science: It works.

[User Name]

I think a lot of this goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway...

I don't think anyone who is posting here is doing so with the notion that they are going to change someone's mind. I certainly have no such illusions.

I like the exchange of ideas and debate and I think considering the subject matter, it has been quite civil.

[Showroom Shine]

Yes I do agree with you. I have already voted. Those who have'nt will see how crazy it is going to be at the polls. Yes the racsim is huge in this world, but never more than at a criticle time as this. The real deep hidden feelings have sufaced about alot of the American Peoples thinking. I'm a born and raised Amerian. Not African American. A Educated Black Man living in America in Ohio. But racism has reared it's Ugly Head.
You know I have never heard a white person called a whie American. Why can't those of us who were born in the United States just be called Americans? Idid not come from Africa,nor did my parents. I AM AN AMERICAN TOO!

Have a Great Day All!
GODSPEED!

Originally Posted by David703

I cannot believe how many friends of mine will NOT vote for him due to his race. They can comfortably tell me this because I am white, as of course, they are. I have already told 2 "friends" that their attitude and racism have no place in my life and I have written them off.

I have never seen so much racism in my life so close to me. I am ashamed. But i just wanted you to know that not all of us are idiots. Obama is already uniting people because this election has brought this issue right to my front door step. Right in my face, up close and very personal!

This election has forever changed the way I think about racism in these United States.

Ha ha "united" states.. please.

[III]

This is a huge election. We all know that. The other day on the radio there was talk about how some people fear the act of riots from either side taking place if their guy doesn't win. That's sad.