How does wax bond to paint?

Bruce · 11-10-03, 01:46

I feel like a little boy asking his daddy why the sky is blue, but if I understood how wax or sealant bonds to the car’s paint I might be able to make more sense out of such frequent Autopia topics as layering, polymer crosslinking, or the infamous Dawn wash. This would help me determine if some of my detailing steps make sense, or if sometimes I am just being silly.

Having asked the question, I will take a stab at an answer and ask for comments if you agree or disagree. I am of the impression that paint is pretty hard stuff, so no matter how much you polish it, including burnishing it to a satiny finish with FP, the surface still has microscopic hills, valleys, pores and fissures, maybe even crags, caves and arroyos, all invisible to the naked eye. This would look like rough terrain indeed to a wax molecule. The paste wax or liquid sealant fills in these surface gaps. Thus, when it dries/cures/hardens the wax layer is locked into the paint with a mechanical bond. This also seems to make sense optically. With the gaps filled in, the sun’s rays are presented with a smoother surface which means more uniform reflection with less scatter and, I would suppose, a better shine.

This sounds reasonable to me, but if true, it raises some trickier questions:

1. If the gaps are filled with wax, what does the second layer of wax bond to, and how does it do it? Maybe the gaps didn’t get totally filled, and the second coat just fills in some more. Or maybe there is some kind of a chemical bond formed between the fresh wax and the cured wax below, but that seems unlikely. On the other hand, new wax must be able to stick to old wax somehow. Otherwise, how could you get a wax buildup? Is it possible that heat generated from applying the second coat softens the base layer enough so that they can somehow chemically merge?

2. I presume that SMR’s or shine enhancing polishes not only fill in the swirls and fine scratches with oils, but also the microscopic gaps, thus enhancing the shine. But with the gaps already filled, how can the wax or sealant bond to the paint? Maybe the answer, at least for carnauba, is that it does not have to bond all that well to the paint or wax layer below because environmental assaults, evaporation and washing will wear it down before bonding becomes an issue. Maybe. The situation may be different for long-term sealants. Sal Zaino wants you to get rid of all those waxes and oils, and Klasse does the job for you with AIO. So maybe these guys last long enough that adequate bonding becomes important. But then…

3. How does Poorboy’s EX do it? The label says it will last six to nine months, and we are not required to prepare the paint with prepsol or a Dawn wash. Not everybody reports that kind of durability for EX, but I do. After six months over Meguiar’s #9 Swirl Remover on a horizontal hood panel, the EX is still going strong.

4. Does crosslinking in polymer-based sealants contribute to bonding to the paint or sealant layer below? I would guess not. From a cursory web search, Zaino and Platinum UPP admit to being polymer-based with crosslinking, but EX and 1Z Glanz Wax don’t mention it, and Klasse claims not to be a polymer product. Neither Zaino nor UPP actually say that the sealant is bonded to the paint or previous sealant coat by crosslinking. Rather, the polymers in the fresh layer crosslink with each other as part of the curing process.

5. The last and ultimate question, which all of this has been leading up to: What does the 43rd layer of Z2 bond to, and how in the world does it do it?

Jesstzn · 11-10-03, 04:08

Did you type all that in one breath?

BTW great questions .. I want to see the answers too. Where is Sal when we need him?

Jimmy Buffit · 11-10-03, 05:45

Fascinating!

I'm not adding anything...
Just standing by.

Fascinating!

Jim

sujo16 · 11-10-03, 05:53

Rock on, my brother!!! You've got my gold star for the best question(s) of the week... can't wait for the answers to come...and they will.

Mosca · 11-10-03, 06:00

I know part of the answer, but not enough of it to say that I actually know the answer. I know that Medallion uses cationic bonding to stick to the surface and to itself. Mike Phillips has commented on "layering" a few times. Amino-functional silicones use cationic bonding as well, to some extent. The rest, I'm not sure. I know that wax molecules link with each other, as do the aminofunctional silicones.

I'll leave the total explanation to someone more qualified, though.

Tom

Jesstzn · 11-10-03, 06:03

aminofunctional silicones <--- sounds like breast implants for a stripper .. wax on .. wax off...

butchdave · 11-11-03, 06:07

Interesting question and I don't know the answer, however...

You are right about the paint not being flat. The wax, no matter how many layers you add will also not make it flat, though it will tend to make it flatter.

If you take an example of plastering a wall, you score the undercoats to provide a key that the next coat locks into. When you buff off wax, no matter if you are using MF, you will be leaving swirl marks at some microscopic level. I would guess that those swirl marks together with the slightly adhesive nature of the product will be enough to get it to stick.

To be honest though I guess the real answer will be so technical that I will be lost after the first line

Aurora40 · 11-11-03, 09:39

I get the impression (though I'm by no means an expert) that actual wax just sort of sticks to itself. Sort of like dipping a candle. Except in this case the wax is softened by chemicals rather than heat.

I've always felt like I could layer real wax on pretty thick if I just kept at it. I think you can build up a pretty substantial layer of actual wax (like paste wax, maybe not with a liquid). I don't think it adds much more protection, though as it is easily removed since it is just piled up there.

This is one reason I like real wax as a topper in the winter. It's easy, and I feel like it can just stick on top of whatever polymer is on the paint. And it can leave a thicker protective coating, even though it still won't last all that long.

But this is mostly just gut feeling type stuff. It's also an effort to keep this thread going as the questions raised are very interesting....

Guess My Name · 11-12-03, 01:41

You assume the bond is mechanical completely...think nail in wood..

What about chemical bond? think glue and think water spots.....

And/or combinations of each... think Nail gun where nail has glue on it.....

the question for each wax/sealant is how is it bonded......

most likely a combination of both mechanical and chemical....

there has to be a point where layer does not exist as applying more product removes underlying product since forces holding product are not sufficient to hold it there due to rubbing action of detailer applying and buffing.....

bretfraz · 11-12-03, 04:14

Now this was the type of discussion we used to have around here.

While you're all waiting for someone more qualified to chime in (don't hold your breath...), have a look at this old thread:
answers for DK and Klasse users SORTA

Ya know, the SEARCH function works great if ya just try it.

BW · 11-12-03, 05:03

to The Search Function. To continue that thread, I'll ask:

Sal suggests using Z6 QD after Z2/Z5 sealant. Sure, this is fine with ZFX as it crosslinks instantly, but what about Z6 on regular-cure Zaino? Wouldn't exposing it to water (QD) stop the crosslinking?

Jesstzn · 11-13-03, 06:39

Quote:

Originally posted by BW

Sal suggests using Z6 QD after Z2/Z5 sealant. Sure, this is fine with ZFX as it crosslinks instantly, but what about Z6 on regular-cure Zaino? Wouldn't exposing it to water (QD) stop the crosslinking?

After reading the 4 pages in the thread bretfraz posted I was thinking the same thing .. I'd like to see more concentrated discussion on the water ( QD) impact on the curing ( crosslinking). Are the sealant users defeating themselves using water or a QD is a buffing assist. And the same for carnuba?? how does a QD effect it during curing?