How does wax bond to paint? - Page 4

BW · 11-16-03, 01:20

Quote:

Originally posted by Aurora40
Imagine applying a pallet's worth, or at least a few cans of #26. Say you applied it, didn't buff (just buff when you're all done), and let it sit for about 12-24 hours before doing another coat (maybe less if you were in a warmer environment that could evaporate the solvents quicker). I really think you could start to build an appreciable film of wax on your car. I doubt it would look very good, and I doubt it would protect very much longer than two thin coats, but I think you could build it up. I'm almost tempted to try this on a mirror housing or something, but shudder at the thought of eventually trying to remove it...

I think I'll give it a try. I have a can of #26. I'll apply as thick of a layer of wax as I can and let the solvents evaporate for 24 hours. Once "dry," I'll attempt to apply another thick coat and see if I can get it to layer or build up into an even thicker film.

My guess is that it won't happen. The second application will rewet and mix with the first application, and once at the point where diminishing returns... when the surface can hold no more wax, it'll have nowhere to go, just back onto the applicator.

Mosca · 11-16-03, 01:57

Aw guys, now my head hurts.

You'd get a thicker coat of product, but would you get a thicker film, down where it counts?

Ya know, where's a chemist when you really need one? Probably out hobnobbing with supermodels, when we have important questions to be answered!

Tom

Gonzo · 11-17-03, 06:57

I think all paint sucks and that is what hold the wax on!

Guess My Name · 11-17-03, 12:31

What if you were to include a glue in a sealant?

Then what happens to the layering theory?

Intermezzo · 11-17-03, 01:25

Quote:

Originally posted by BW
IMO, the difference is that the catoinic (sp?) bond of paint and aminosilicone polymer is much stronger than the less well-organized wax bond. And polysiloxane sealants like Klasse and Zaino bond stronger because they contain resins that cure or crosslink onto the surface it’s being applied to. Such a curing product will link its chain of uniform molecules together, and then become a durable, slightly different compound (still a tough cohesive repeating chain) than what it was previously.

So the word I should have used instead is "crosslink." It’s the crosslinking that occurs that can explain a synthetic’s greater bonding ability than a wax. And as Mosca has been trying to explain, greater bonding = greater durability. Right?

BW, this is one of the best posts I've read in a long time! Key phrase here is...

"become a durable, slightly different compound (still a tough cohesive repeating chain) than what it was previously. "

By definition, crosslinking or curing of a substance causes that substance to undergo changes in its basic nature. (i.e., it will harden signficantly and will no longer melt or dissolve when exposed to its original solvent) I think this is the key difference between what will allow a TRUE CROSSLINKING POLYMER to layer effectively whereas a traditional wax will not layer as effectively.

I as well as several other (older) members here have seen the difference in shine with a single coat of KSG vs. 4-5 coats of KSG. I completely disagree with most of the assertions made on a different but recent thread regarding Meguairs and layering.

Just an opinion.... not a bash against waxes or 'hybrids'. (please, no long winded responses or flames about opening a 'can of worms' or 'ignorant MSDS readers')

Mosca · 11-17-03, 01:44

Quote:

Just an opinion.... not a bash against waxes or 'hybrids'. (please, no long winded responses or flames about opening a 'can of worms' or 'ignorant MSDS readers')

No argument here, I for one agree about the advantages of polymers over waxes and hybrids. I'm still not sold that they truly layer, but again, wth do I know. What I do know is that when you type in "amino-functional silicones", Google returns over 1 million pages, and most of them are even less understandable than the ones about wax.

I wax so often that next summer I'm going to forego waxing completely and use Meguiar's #7 once a week.

Tom

DETAILKING · 11-17-03, 05:50

More than just wax....

You have to remember that a car wax formulation is more than just "wax." Typically it is a mixture of different waxes (carnuba, paraffin, polyethylene,etc), and oils. It must contain an oil to have any kind of shine. This is the weak point when it comes to durability. The oils are suspended in the solid wax layer. On hot days, as the wax softens, those oils leach to the surface and evaporate. On colder days, when the wax layer is hard, it cannot thermally contract and expand with the steel on the car. This causes tiny microscopic voids in the wax layer and again, causes the oils to diminish. A wax product does not "bond to the surface"....it just kind of lays there. When I think of "layering carnubas" what comes to mind is reapplying and adding / replenishing more oils to the system. Typically, this improves shine, and there are some concours layering techniques that are very effective. Do I believe these techniques add protection and longevity? No way.....the solvents in a carnuba formulation change the state (liquid to solid) of the wax. No chemical change / crosslinking occurs, so when that formulation is reapplied and subjected again to the solvents, it will soften and reapply the wax...simple as that. Certain waxes come closer than others when it comes to layering. The ones thatt come closest, have a minimmal amount of wax / durability to begin with.....low solvent content, and tons of oils. These products are not durable and multiple application will not help either....but could increase / replenish gloss. It is always a trade off.......the oils are the culprit here....that is why you will always see a difference in shine and durability when you look at blitz compared to souveran.

Another trick was the inclusion of abrasives. They would increase the durability slightly by "scoreing the surface" so the carnuba could get a better bite. Kind of like sanding before you paint.

Now the next topic is sealants and polymers......I'll post the deal on that later........

Mosca · 11-17-03, 07:42

Yeah, yeah, but "bond" can mean like sodium to chlorine, or it can mean like grease bonds to your skin and won't wipe off. It doesn't "bond", but it's sure stuck there until you attack it with a surfactant. THAT's the type of bond I mean. I need the word for it, though.

Thanks for filling in a lot of stuff I didn't know/couldn't find. The internet is like a library without a card catalog. I was going to call a university tomorrow and see if I could get a professor to help answer the question.

Tom

Redcar GUY · 11-17-03, 08:03

Welcome to the old Autopia that we all use to love

Great post!

Mosca · 11-18-03, 06:16

"van der Waals forces". Waxes are held together by van der Waals forces, "...forces which arise from induced rather than permanent dipoles.... The van der Waals force is the force to which the gecko's unique ability to cling to smooth surfaces is attributed." Their nature is electrostatic.

My father was a chemical engineer at PICCO and Hercules for most of his life, working with industrial hydrocarbons; in his words, "the sticky part of the tape". His contribution to this discussion is to say that the act of applying the product also adds some heat and pressure through friction [inducing dipoles?] to aid in bonding. When I asked him if the product would "layer", he shrugged (he's 76, been retired for 13 years; still active though, a life master at bridge) and said, "I don't know. I imagine it can be made (ie, engineered) to layer. I really don't know." So, inconclusive, "maybe, maybe not"; I didn't want anyone thinking I didn't ask.

Tom