The New 2007 Toyota Camry....(pics 56k ok)

[GoodnClean]

Sales is all about overcoming objections, and Ford has a LOT of them to overcome. So far they've sucked at it. Thier transformation is going to be hard and difficult but not impossible.

Step one is going to be no more shared vehicles with Ford. Platforms are fine, but the cars are too obviously related (the Fusion and the Zephyr use the same steering wheel for God's sake). That helps one objection.

Step two is to cancel the Town Car. Yes its a risk, but sometimes you have to give up on your weak base to go after a stronger new consumer. You will never be able to sell cars to BMW owners next to a Town Car. Look at Cadillac? They got rid of all their old names INCLUDING the Deville. They slapped a art and science front and rear end on the thing and called it the "DTS" and all of a sudden 40 year olds aren't so scared to buy STS'. Ford could do the same thing to the Town Car and save some of their base. I went to the Washington Auto Show, Lincoln had all their cool new concepts there. What was on the side of the display? A hilariously ugly blue Town Car with wire wheels, vogue tires and a blue vinyl top with gold emblems. How stupid was that? Why even have that car there? No one was paying attention to the new concepts (which are fantastic) they were laughing at the Town Car! "Lincolns are so ugly" is what I heard from people.

All of the money spent on the car show wasted. Whoever designed the display should be fired.

Step three is to make stand alone Lincoln dealers and completely cancel the Mercury brand. Selling Lincolns next to Mercuries is self defeating. Sell them next to Jags if you must.

Step four is to price them properly and NOT GIVE ANY REBATES.

Thats a recipie for success.

[Sherman8r44]

Originally Posted by GoodnClean

Sales is all about overcoming objections, and Ford has a LOT of them to overcome. So far they've sucked at it. Thier transformation is going to be hard and difficult but not impossible.

Step one is going to be no more shared vehicles with Ford. Platforms are fine, but the cars are too obviously related (the Fusion and the Zephyr use the same steering wheel for God's sake). That helps one objection.

Step two is to cancel the Town Car. Yes its a risk, but sometimes you have to give up on your weak base to go after a stronger new consumer. You will never be able to sell cars to BMW owners next to a Town Car.

Step three is to make stand alone Lincoln dealers and completely cancel the Mercury brand. Selling Lincolns next to Mercuries is self defeating. Sell them next to Jags if you must.

Step four is to price them properly and NOT GIVE ANY REBATES.

Thats a recipie for success.

Again, agreed! I just think that with Step 1 the difference has to be even further defined by using marketing. Lexus has done an amazing job with this with the ES by upgrading interior components of the Camry, reducing the visual similarities, and an amazing marketing campaign that can completely dissociate the two in consumers minds.

[GoodnClean]

And they sell 80,000 of them a year.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Sherman8r44

I couldn't have said it better!

Len, that Lincoln LS V8 of yours came in DEAD LAST in a 2002 Car and Driver comparison test where the other six were V6s, IIRC. THAT is Ford's fault. The Contour didn't sell because it was too small for the class which didn't suit the needs of the consumer shopping for that class of car. Despite losing some of it's tuner crowd, the Civic still managed to pull out strong sales for Honda. And yes, it is Ford's fault that they sell Town Cars next to LS's--it's called MARKETING. It is up to them to make sure that the car is branded and sold properly so as not to inspire these judgements in people (it's not irrational prejudice, it is induced judgement ). The reason that people have a prejudice against GM's crappy cheap interiors is because they have been that way for a long, long time. And would you like to tell me the names of these "same suppliers"?.

Chrysler has managed to keep out of the borderline Chapter 11 state of GM and Ford by producing solid, exciting cars. Excellent, well-marketed cars like the Chrysler 300C manage to win comparison tests AND sell quite a few vehicles. I have not seen any kind of inspirational designs out of GM like the 300C or the PT Cruser (and don't say the HHC, copycats always suck). Plus, Ford and GM (the latter in particular) are reknown for shoddy build quality and suspect reliability. That reputation IS absolutely their fault--there is no conspiracy, nobody trying to take them down--the quality and refinement is just totally lacking.

P.S. It's spelled nonsense

When I want you to correct my spelling, I'll ask you..lol. BTW, it's spelled PT Cruiser, not PT Cruser...pot calling the kettle black. I think we both forgot to spell check!!

And the designer of the PT Cruiser left Chrysler to go work for GM....where he designed the HHC. Sort of explains the resemblance I think.

Eagle Ottawa is one of the largest suppliers of leather to all the luxury auto makers (including the Cadillac STS & CTS, and the Honda Ridgeline and the Mercedes Benz R Class and the M Class ).

Other interior suppliers include Visteon (Want to buy an Infinity QX luxury SUV built in Canton, Mississippi? Same Visteon that supplies Lincoln, Ford, & Mercury also supplies Nissan, and that includes instrument panels, exterior front end clip and lighting, and some engine electronics), Delphi - who is supplying the Mercedes Benz R Class and the M Class in Vance, Alabama with the entire instrument panel and cockpit module - you know Delphi, the former GM division, Johnson Controls supplies seats, made with Eagle Ottawa's leather, to GM, Mercedes and Nissan, among other. Lear supplies headliners and carpets to GM (including Cadillac), Chrysler, Mercedes, Ford (including Lincoln) and Toyota (including Avalon).

Many of the same Japanese transplant suppliers also supply Ford, GM, and Chrysler - Ford's C3 cars (Fusion, Milan, and Zephyr) get their 6 speed automatics from Aisin Warner, until Ford starts making their own version of a joint Ford-GM designed 6 speed later this year. Denso supplies Toyota and Ford with AC components. NHK supplies Honda, GM, and Ford with parts. Takata, a Japanese safety systems manufacturer with their USA Headquarters in Auburn Hills, MI, supplies Ford, Nissan, Honda and other with airbags. Lear supplies seat-belts to Ford, Toyota, and Mercedes. Tower Automotive makes frames for the Ford Explorer and the Nissan Pathfinder. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, and Honda engines and transmissions made in North America are getting engine blocks cast by the same suppliers, in the some of the same plants, including Intermet.

The place I'm working at now is quoting on machine parts for assembly line equipment being made by one Detroit company for Ford, GM, Nissan and Honda.

You're right about the Town Car being an old fashioned POS, as is the Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis. Try find a livery service/executive sedan service that wants Ford to dump the Town Car. Or for that matter, a limo conversion/manufacturing company that wants the Town Car dropped. They may use other vehicles, including SUV's and unibody vehicles like the larger Cadillac, but as the limo companies what their preference for room, ride, and durability is for limos. The majority of the industry still prefers the land barge Ford calls the Town Car. The new Ford management is probably still going to dump the Town car as of summer 2007, and St. Thomas Assembly, home of the Crown Vic will go down to one shift to sell Crown Vic to fleets only. BTW, I hate all three of them, but my brother, who works for Ford as a zone manager (wholesales cars to dealers) said that until six months ago, all his Houston and Dallas dealers bitched that Ford might drop the three of them. Then gases prices shot up some more, and now no one is saying anything. But having dealers cry about wanting to still sell the land yachts as of last spring & summer tells you what a PITA it is to market cars when you have a legacy component to your customer base.

Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Montego are being positioned to replace Crown Victoria at the retail level, even though Crown Vic owners don't want a buckets/console/floor shift car - Ford has told them "tough". BTW, I'll take my Montego over the 2007 Camry any day - I have way more room, and I like the higher seating position and the Volvo derived safety features.

And despite what you said about Zephyr, it still selling fairly well - only thing holding back sales is a supplier problem with Collins & Aikman. Most dealers are in short supply with Zephyr.

The Town Car's replacement in Lincoln's line up: link here - despite the "concept" nomenclature, I've already quoted prototype parts for this vehicle, and it is going into production pretty much as is with very few changes (mostly the exterior mirrors).

You want me to go on? Try know something about this industry in North America, before you issue a challenge like "And would you like to tell me the names of these "same suppliers"?.". I've been involved in this industry as a supplier since 1985.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by GoodnClean

Sales is all about overcoming objections, and Ford has a LOT of them to overcome. So far they've sucked at it. Thier transformation is going to be hard and difficult but not impossible.

Step one is going to be no more shared vehicles with Ford. Platforms are fine, but the cars are too obviously related (the Fusion and the Zephyr use the same steering wheel for God's sake). That helps one objection.

Step two is to cancel the Town Car. Yes its a risk, but sometimes you have to give up on your weak base to go after a stronger new consumer. You will never be able to sell cars to BMW owners next to a Town Car. Look at Cadillac? They got rid of all their old names INCLUDING the Deville. They slapped a art and science front and rear end on the thing and called it the "DTS" and all of a sudden 40 year olds aren't so scared to buy STS'. Ford could do the same thing to the Town Car and save some of their base. I went to the Washington Auto Show, Lincoln had all their cool new concepts there. What was on the side of the display? A hilariously ugly blue Town Car with wire wheels, vogue tires and a blue vinyl top with gold emblems. How stupid was that? Why even have that car there? No one was paying attention to the new concepts (which are fantastic) they were laughing at the Town Car! "Lincolns are so ugly" is what I heard from people.

All of the money spent on the car show wasted. Whoever designed the display should be fired.

Step three is to make stand alone Lincoln dealers and completely cancel the Mercury brand. Selling Lincolns next to Mercuries is self defeating. Sell them next to Jags if you must.

Step four is to price them properly and NOT GIVE ANY REBATES.

Thats a recipie for success.

Town Car is probably gone as of next summer. Some have said it's moving from Wixom Assembly, in Detroit, to St. Thomas Assembly in Ontario,where the Crown Vic is being made, but St. Thomas is going down to one shift, to make those body-on-frame cars for the fleet and livery business only, so I think TC is history.

Zephyr shares too much sheet metal with the Fusion - I agree. But steering wheels (or instrument panel & console, for that mater) - I think not.

Zephyr:

Fusion:

Not the same wheel, and it's not trim differences either. Look related? That's in the eye of the beholder. But the same wheel? No. Diameter is different, and the cruise-control/stereo switches are completely different - we made the prototype brackets for both, and I can tell yo - they're completely different size and shape.

Ford can't cancel Mercury. Even with minor differences between the Ford Escape and the Mercury Mariner, and the Ford Fusion and the Mercury Milan, Mercury is bringing in a completely different buyer than the Ford dealers (and Ford claims the Mercury buyers have more import conquests than Ford sales do), plus Lincoln dealerships can't for the most part stand alone with Mercury's sales volume. GM ended up losing more business from axing Oldsmobile than the elimination of the brand saved them in costs. One thing you guys aren't aware of is the all fifty states have strong franchise laws that benefit the dealers, not the auto companies (Detroit, Japanese, or European). GM got nailed with so many lawsuits from canceling Oldsmobile that they have been seriously regretting it for the last three years. Your opinions, as with mine, as car enthusiasts are irrelevant. All fifty states courts nailed GM's butt to the wall over canceling Olds. Chrysler faired a bit better dumping Plymouth, because they slapped the Chrysler name on the low end Plymouth products and the Chrysler-Plymouth-Jeep dealers had no real loses to claim in court.

What Ford needs to do is a better job of differentiating Mercury from Ford. Mercury is to Ford what Buick is to GM - a supposed aspirational stepping stone from Ford to Lincoln, in the way Buick is supposed to be from Chevrolet to Cadillac. Mercury's average buyers age dropped almost a whole decade with the Montego, and the Milan and Mariner dropped it even further while raising the average aggregate education level of the the customer base.

I agree that having such a garish POS at the Washington DC Auto Show is a mistake - blame the dealers association, not Ford. Again, the state franchise laws give the dealers a lot of latitude, and the automakers have little control. I'll give you two examples, two Detroit automakers, and the same problem. For Ford, it was the 1999 LS, and for Chrysler it was the mid 1990's LHS. Neither automaker wanted their dealers to display, or even sell, any with an aftermarket vinyl top (YUCK...Major YUCK) on them. Ford had the dealers sign a sales agreement agreeing not to do so. Most dealers did anyway, and when Ford threatened to withhold their allocation of LS's, Ford got taken to court...and lost. Restriction was thrown out in every case that went to court, regardless of state jurisdiction, on the grounds that the franchise laws didn't allow such an addenum. At Chrysler, design chief Trevor Creed threaten factiously to send company designers out with box cutters to remove the tops - Chrysler dealers were so incensed, some of them withheld monthly vehicle orders just to screw with Chrysler's production schedule. Trevor Creed had to issue a public apology.

I still see a few Chrysler 300's with fake carriage tops. I never see a Lexus with one (so far). Any bet on whether Chrysler would like to stop their dealers from selling the damn things? Different customer bases, and the dealers are going to do what they want to do,regardless. Look Honda/Acura zone managers asked Acura dealers not to display Acura's with Stongard or Xpel on the hoods and front ends, because it sends the message that the cars might not be sturdy enough to hold up to road debris. I know two different Acura dealers in this area who display them any way - guy who does the installation is the same guy who installed Xpel on my car. Honda cannot, under the franchise laws, stop them.

[drewski59]

Originally Posted by Sherman8r44

Chrysler has managed to keep out of the borderline Chapter 11 state of GM and Ford by producing solid, exciting cars. Excellent, well-marketed cars like the Chrysler 300C manage to win comparison tests AND sell quite a few vehicles. I have not seen any kind of inspirational designs out of GM like the 300C or the PT Cruser (and don't say the HHC, copycats always suck). Plus, Ford and GM (the latter in particular) are reknown for shoddy build quality and suspect reliability. That reputation IS absolutely their fault--there is no conspiracy, nobody trying to take them down--the quality and refinement is just totally lacking.

P.S. It's spelled nonsense

Well said, Sherman!!

When we went shopping for my PT, I was only considering Hondas and Toyotas at the time due to brand image and quality. However, Chrysler really pulled off a great car with the PT, and it was good enough to earn our dollars. (The HHR is such a blatant ripoff!)

The reason I didn't lump Chrysler in with Ford and GM(like I would have a few years ago) is because they do build solid cars that earn respect from the media and consumers alike. The bold designs really are a gamble for them, but they usually pay off big, because now people demand personality with their cars, something American cars rarely have had until Chrysler starting infusing some in their vehicles...

And Len, we'll have to agree to disagree on most of our points, but I did forget that Cadillac has been making some darn nice cars lately...but because of reputation, they're not likely to steal many BMW or Audi customers away...

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by drewski59

Well said, Sherman!!

When we went shopping for my PT, I was only considering Hondas and Toyotas at the time due to brand image and quality. However, Chrysler really pulled off a great car with the PT, and it was good enough to earn our dollars. (The HHR is such a blatant ripoff!)

The reason I didn't lump Chrysler in with Ford and GM(like I would have a few years ago) is because they do build solid cars that earn respect from the media and consumers alike. The bold designs really are a gamble for them, but they usually pay off big, because now people demand personality with their cars, something American cars rarely have had until Chrysler starting infusing some in their vehicles...

And Len, we'll have to agree to disagree on most of our points, but I did forget that Cadillac has been making some darn nice cars lately...but because of reputation, they're not likely to steal many BMW or Audi customers away...

Well, we agree the HHR is a rip off - and the PT Cruiser is the better looking of the two. Cadillac will win back some of the customers, but not likely most. Time will eventually tell. Same if Ford's new direction pays off. Now that they have a younger guy, Mark Fields (he's only 44) running the show, maybe they'll get their act together and save some of their market share. Ford is paying for what today seem like really stupid decisions, but keep something in mind - when they made those "stupid", mostly recently in 1999 and 2000, they were selling nearly one of every four new vehicles sold. In 2000 they had over 24% share of the market (something close to 24.6%).

[Len_A]

Another side of the claim of Toyota Quality: Link Here , Here, Here and Link Here , as well as this one cover several automakers (link here).

Interesting reading.

[GoodnClean]

Look at it this way, if someone as informed about cars as me thought they were the same steering wheel, what will the motoring public think?

And fleets be damned, Ford either needs to decide to service fleets or service the consumer. If they want to continue servicing fleets the way that they have then they're not going to be able to increase their market share the way that they HAVE to increase to survive. Fleet use destroys brand image AND resale.

You have to remember Ford's dire financial situation, the formula they've been using isn't working, out with the old and in with the new.

As for the claims of Toyota quality, you can find articles to support anything but thats beside the issue, what you have to understand is the facts don't matter. What matters is whats in the consumers head and what they say with their wallets. The consumer thinks Fords are crappy cars, and they aren't buying them. Ford could start to build the best cars on earth and unless they can change that notion, they're doomed.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by GoodnClean

Look at it this way, if someone as informed about cars as me thought they were the same steering wheel, what will the motoring public think?

And fleets be damned, Ford either needs to decide to service fleets or service the consumer. If they want to continue servicing fleets the way that they have then they're not going to be able to increase their market share the way that they HAVE to increase to survive. Fleet use destroys brand image AND resale.

You have to remember Ford's dire financial situation, the formula they've been using isn't working, out with the old and in with the new.

As for the claims of Toyota quality, you can find articles to support anything but thats beside the issue, what you have to understand is the facts don't matter. What matters is whats in the consumers head and what they say with their wallets. The consumer thinks Fords are crappy cars, and they aren't buying them. Ford could start to build the best cars on earth and unless they can change that notion, they're doomed.

Actually, to be truthful, I agree with most of what you said. I, too, can't stand fleet sales - Ford's fleet business has burned me in the wallet with poor resale values.

You said fleet sales destroys brand image and resale - you're 100% right on the money.

What I can tell you is that Ford's upper management is going to see each and every comment. After three years of both having the door slammed in my face as a supplier by Toyota and Nissan (as well as Honda), and watching Ford & GM's floundering gut my employer (and by extension, my career), I figure I have nothing to lose by shoving these comments right in their faces. I happen to have the fax number (one of many) that goes right to executive suites at Ford World Headquarters. Don't laugh - I've done this before. My wife is a legal assistant, who once was working on a document sweep at Ford related to the Firestone tire debacle, and she and her coworkers found a letter I wrote to then Chairman William Peterson, right after I had use of an Eagle Vision from Chrysler for an entire weekend (one of the original Chrysler LH cars)., basically telling him what was wrong with the Ford Taurus & Mercury Sable, and how Chrysler beat Ford's designers on the LH cars. Someone wrote in the margins of my faxed letter (according to my wife) "Someone at Design Center needs to take this guy's comments seriously".

Well, it's time for another tongue lashing for the twits at Ford, and this time I'm copying and pasting the comments from these threads into my document. One might say email is better, but I don't have a usable email address for any of their executives, and besides - there's nothing like a fax machine printing a twenty page fax at 6 AM.

[jfelbab]

Back on topic here are a few more photos of the 2007 Camry and some info.


Engines:
2.4-liter 4 cylinder VVTi, twin cam, 4 valves per cylinder. 158 hp at 6,000 rpm, 161 lb-ft torque.
3.5-liter V6, dual VVTi, twin cam, 4 valves per cylinder. 268 hp at 6,200 rpm, 248 lb-ft at 4,700 rpm.

Transmissions:
Four cylinder versions are available with a 5-speed manual or 5-speed automatic transaxle (FWD). The V6 is available with 6-speed automatic

Front suspension is MacPherson strut with antiroll bar. The rear suspension is independent dual-link with antiroll bar. Standard ARBs are 24.2mm hollow, the SE model gets 25mm solid ARBs.

Four-wheel disk brakes with ABS.

Power-assisted rack and pinion steering with a 36 ft turning circle and 3.2 turns lock-to-lock.

Standard wheels are 6.5x16 front and rear. The SE model gets alloys - 6.5x17 front and 7x17 rear. Tires are 215/60 all around, except for the SE, with 215/55's.

EPA city/highway fuel economy numbers range from 25/34 for the manual transmission four-cylinder, to 22/31 for the V6.

[LightngSVT]

Im confused on the fleet sales issue? Sure Ford (and GM) sell alot more fleet cars than the other mfg's. But what about all those Camrys, Accords, Civic's and Corrolas you see down at the rental car lots, are those not fleet sales? Lexus and Ford will never compete in the same league, not a fair comparison! THey are not aiming for the same consumer base anyway. Lincoln on the other hand should be taking aim at least at the lower end of the Lexus line up (price wise).

I also think that Lincoln NEEDS that MKS! I saw that at NAIAS and was blown away, it is a gorgeous design. To me and other comments I overheard it had a very Lexus like look to it. As long as they can get it out on time, wihtout quality issues and market it correctly I think it could definitely help Lincolns image, because God only knows what the heck is up with the rest of their line up ( TC, MK-LT and Zephyr (ugly beast in person!)). I also dont think Lincolns have the sales to support free standing dealers, Mercury pays the bills that allow dealers to sell Lincolns.