Porsches

[Hypnotiq04]

Hey guys my dad and I are trying to decide what kind of porsche to buy. The first choice is a 1981 Porsche 911 thats emerald green color and is all original including the paint and has 60,000 miles on it maybe a little more. It's a manual trans. and has all leather interior. There is a CD player put into it. They are asking around 13,000 for this car i believe. The second choice (MY FAVORITE) is a 1993 Porchse 968. This is the porsche that replaced the 944. It is white and has a navy blue soft top. All leather interior and has 31,000 miles on it. The biggest thing about this car though is that it is missing its front clip. Meaning that it has no radiator, condensor, and a couple of other things (just a few though). The guy that is selling it has purchased a brand new front clip for this car. I havent personally seen it but my dad says that it is brand new. ( i will look it over before the deal is done though) Anyhow to kinda wrap this up we would be gettign this car for 8,000 and would have to put about 3,000 into it. So what do you guys think my dad is selling three cars to buy this dream of his and he wants to make the right choice. what should it be ladies and gentleman??????

[andriver]

The 81 911 seems like a good deal considering the mileage. You may want to check Nada pricing for comparison. As far as the 968, was it in a collision? The last thing you want to deal with is a bent frame. I would suggest that you have both cars checked out by a reputable mechanic before making a purchase.

I had a 78 911 that I totally loved.

[bretfraz]

I think you guys need to do a lot of research before spending any money. Both cars are light years different from each other and you should know them both intimately.

IMHO, the 968 is no bargain and certainly no dream. Let someone else (like a body shop guy) buy the Lego 968. Dollars to donuts the costs to perfectly fix the 968 will far exceed $3000.

Here's a couple of books you and dad should read like they were the Holy Bible:

https://www.sportscarmarket.com/subscribe/porsche.php

http://www.911secrets.com/

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

[sonnydaze1]

the 911 will certainly hold it's value better.

[Ice9]

Glad you are looking into some Porsches, I love mine. I have a 1986 944 Turbo. It is similar to the 968 which I would love to own as well.

As far as advice, I would suggest getting a pre-purchase inspections on both cars. There are a number of good independent Porsche mechs in Chicago.

What you find out about before you own it will save you tons in the long-run. Porsches are quite expensive to maintain. The parts are expensive and they didn't build them for easy maintenance. A clutch swap on my car takes about 12-14 hours.

About the different cars, you will see that they are worlds apart in many ways. The 968 will be faster both straight-line and on a track. It will also be easier to drive fast. The 911 is a bit more classic, but your tastes may vary.

I will say that I have my doubts about a 968 with 31,000 for $8,000. It must be a near total. Normal price for a good example would be around $20,000-23,000.

My suggestion would be to search the best Porsche forum around, Rennlist. They are very helpful and there is endless information there. They will help you find a mechanic and give you an assesment of the cars worth. I do suggest searching first though because people can get a little testy with the same questions over and over.

Here is the link: Rennlist

Oh, btw, what are your plans for the car? A weekend cruiser, daily driver, street/track, track only?

Good luck!
Max

[detailbarn]

I would go with the 911 it is the "real Porsche" of the two and alot more fun to drive. I have driven both and the 968 didn't really impress me , there is no other car that drives like a 911 so I say for the pleasure of driving it alone go with the 911.

[Ice9]

I would beg to differ with detailbarn's comment of "real Porsche". The concept that the 911 is the only real Porsche is a very narrow view. Porsche has had a number of very succesful cars that have the Porsche feel and performance with no link to the 911.

Don't give me wrong, I love 911s...but no more so than 944s and 968s (never been a huge 928 guys, but they are nice). Then you have the awesome 356 and the fast 914. Plus the newer models. They are all Porsches. The only one that I would question would be the Cayenne, but that is different story.

There is no question that the 911 will feel very different than the 944/968 (basically the same chassis). The 911 is a generally bad design which has been compensated for for years. Most 911 owners appreciate this tenacity and uniqueness. It gives the 911 its soul, but that is not what a Porsche is. That is what a 911 is.

In the end, it depends on what you want. If you want that unique 911 feel and look, get the 911. If you want a real Porsche, get either one.

When I bought my 944 Turbo, I was also looking at a 74 911 Carrera. The Carrera was in the same condition as the 944, and it was awesome too. The difference for me was that the 944 will make a better race car and it is faster. If I had my druthers, I would buy both.

Three more pieces of advice:

1. Ask for, demand and pay the premium for full maintenance records...you will never fogive yourself without them.
2. Check out the 86-88 911. They have the same body as the 81, but with a little more displacement, better tranny and Bosch Motronic engine management. This is assuming it can fit your budget.
3. Check out the 944 series in both Turbo and non-turbo. They provide better value than the 911.

Good luck.
Max

[bet993]

My favorite topic…Porsche. The first thing is slow down and be patient, research and learn. Nothing is more frustrating than buying your dream Porsche and later realizing you didn’t know what you were buying. There many good examples available and there are some horrible nightmares (but look fantastic) just waiting for the uninformed Porsche shopper. Any Porsche if not maintained properly can be a money pit. Service and Maintenance records are the essential. Each model (and even year of each model) has it idiosyncrasies when it comes to strengths and weaknesses. Porsches are very rewarding and very fun to drive (all the models) but getting a poor example can really sour you experience.

Realize that Porsches are a little bit different than your average car. Accidents and/or any type of paint work really hurts the cars desirability and resale value among Porschephiles. If a car has suffered damaged and/or had a respray of any portion, alarms should go off in your head. The price should be low as it will difficult to sell later. Personally I would not purchase a Porsche that has had paintwork done, (but that is your decision). If you do decide to consider them, negotiate the heck on it and get if for song. If you do purchase a car that has been repainted and/or been involved in an accident have it checked out thoroughly to determine how it was put back together. The wisdom “If it seems the deal is to good, then it probably is” definitely applies to these cars. Sure there are bargains to be found from those have come on financial hardship, but be very cautious. Prepurchase inspections are a must for any Porsche. You should get it done by a knowledgeable Porsche mechanic that knows the particular model and vintage you are looking at. Spending a few hundred dollars can save you thousands in repair cost. I usually recommend a compression, leak down test to determine the condition of the engine internally.

The two cars you are looking at could not really be that much different in what they offer. The SC is still a raw 911 with a torsen bar suspension and basically a useless climate control system. However, it is very fun to drive (and can be a challenge), there are some fun modifications that can be done, they are relatively easy to work on and it has the very distinctive air cooled flat 6 sound (which is awesome btw). You didn’t say whether the 911 was a coupe, targa or cab, which makes a difference in price. The 968 is much more modern with a decent climate control system, ABS, airbags, modern electronics, etc., and it has a water cooled 4 cylinder. The parts are very expensive for the 968 and they can be somewhat more complicated to work on as it has a lot more electronics than the SC. The 968 is faster in the straight line in stock form than the SC, and fun to drive with a near 50/50 weight distribution, but not as challenging or engaging as the SC.

I agree with the others. Check out Rennlist. NADA, Kelly Blue Book and Edmunds are sort of worthless when it comes to determining prices. You can get a much better feel for the market by discussing this with the people on Rennlist. Also you can contact your local PCA (Porsche Club of America) chapter for suggestions on mechanics and advice. I am the president of my local PCA and can get you the email of your region people, or you can look at www.pca.org. The last advice I can give you is drive many examples of the cars you are looking at to get feel for how they drive. Most importantly have fun.

[bet993]

Max, I have to disagree a little with you with regard to the value of the 944 series. Yes they are inexpensive and yes they offer good performance for the price (especially the turbos). However, you must consider the maintenance cost in the equation (especially if it will be a daily driver). The prices of NA 944s are heading south of $5k. They require frequent (every 30k miles) changing of the belts, rollers and water pump which unless you are a DIYer is quite costly ($1200 depending on location) considering the price of these cars. Additionally other parts are very expensive when you consider the market value of the cars and they are not particularly easy to work on. Many of these cars are getting to the point where items need replacing just because of age and there are many cars on the market that are neglected because of the cost of maintenance on them compared to real world value. Don’t get me wrong I think these are superb handling cars and would never discourage anyone from getting one if the 944’s if that is what they wanted, but to say they are good value is not completely accurate. Even Bruce Anderson is backing off this statement because of the cost of maintenance. Now a better argument can be made for the 944 Turbo because of the stock power and the potential to produce more power. But the same maintenance and cost associated with ownership exist with the turbos as with the NA cars. There are good buys to be had in this market but a buyer should be cautious and have a fund set aside for repairs. The cost of one of these cars could easily double with the failure of a torque tube, turbo rebuild, and the need to replace the belts and rollers. A buyer just needs to beware of this.

Now for a dedicated Porsche track car things change. I am not sure there is a better value than the 944 series cars for dedicated racing and tracking.

[Ice9]

Brian-

Excellent points and to be honest with you, I agree completely. I should have explained myself better and not made such a blanket statement.

In the end, every Porsche model (at least that I am aware of) is one helluva car. They all have their ups and downs so I suggest doing extensive research and investing in a healthy amount of patience.

Speaking of PCA, I just joined. I am a member of the Central Indiana Region. What region are you president of? I am excited to get involved in some of the events, especially track events. Maybe I will see you at Putnam.

I see you have a 96 993...those should not be driven...they are works of art! (btw, I am just kidding, drive the h*** out of it...it is imo the ultimate 911 design...and maybe car design). If you have some pics, I suggest posting. Why are you selling?

Max

[bet993]

Sorry not to hijack the thread, but…

Max, welcome to PCA! I am the President of the Southern Indiana Region (which is struggling to keep people involved). Putnam Park a great track. Very forgiving with really only one spot you have worry about damaging your car.

I agree the 993 is a work of art and arguably the pinnacle of the air cooled cars and unfortunately that attitude gets me in trouble as I tend not to drive it enough (am not real sure who I am saving it for?). It is not a daily driver for me (I have a beater that I am tired of driving all the time). I wish I could afford to keep the 993 and get another car to drive daily but I can’t. Once I bought my first Porsche (after lusting after them since I was about 10) I told myself I was always going to own a Porsche (it gets in your blood you know). My wife complains about taking the 993 out of town because it is not as comfortable as her car (whatever). I toyed with the idea of getting 944T for awhile but decided against it because it wouldn’t solve my out of town problems (b/c I would lower it and mod the crap out of it…eventually I would like to get one as a dedicated track car). So basically, I really don't have a good reason for selling the car. I just want something different. I am looking at used 996's (I still can't believe I typed that). I had a Boxster (that I drove daily) prior to the 993 and I miss some of the ergonomically things such as the one touch auto climate control and heated heats. I also want to get PSM and/or a C4 so that I can drive year round (as you know we get some snow and ice here which I never drive the 993 in). I test drove a couple of Boxster S's but they are just a little under powered for my taste. I think I would like a 996 with the factory aero kit, lowered with PSS-9's, and a little more air cooled sounding exhaust (something like the GHL). I have driven a couple but they are too soft with the factory US suspension so it is hard for me to determine how they would drive with something a little stiffer.

Hopefully I will get a chance to meet you at some of the PCA events and/or Putnam Park.

This isn't the best picture but here you go.

[rathi60]

MY ADVICE: Stay away from Porsche's. It is only for the rich (100k + Income). Did you say that your dad had to sell three cars to buy a $13000 a car? Well this pretty much sums it up. Budget yourself for a high maintenance cost.