Weasel Wording of the Decade (GM Chapt. 11)

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

BTW, I think in this particular instance, if everybody had done the right thing, then everyone could have had their cake and eaten it, too. The GM heavy-vehicle hybrid system is reportedly very good, and seems to be pretty transparent. The upside is 50% better city mileage, the downside is a lot of extra cost. I think in this case if it had been managed right, volume would have brought the cost down into an effective range.

Heck, we got some new A/C units at work that were high efficiency...we got a rebate from the power company that was substantially the cost difference between the std. and hi-efficiency...so we got the high efficiency upgrade for free, we save electricity for the life of the equipment, the power company doesn't have to build a new plant...seems pretty win-win to me.

I tend to agree. And there's also, speaking of the power companies, the fact that they waste as much as two thirds of the energy, in any unit of fuel, as waste heat, and resist like hell any attempt to get them to improve their efficiency. Even when faced with the fact that the technology is off the shelf, and at least two countries, Japan and Denmark, do this wast heat energy recovery as a matter of course.

Here's something for you to read: Find greatest energy savings in power production industry

Keep in mind the author used to be a power industry executive. Enjoy.

BTW, I used to call on the power industry, and one of my friends, and a former engineering customer at DTE Energy (Detroit Edison), verified everything this guy says is possible.

[Setec Astronomy]

Ha...I was talking to someone who told me that he likes to shake up greenies at cocktail parties by telling them if they are really "green" they support nuclear power, right? Because it's the only proven capacity power source that uses no non-renewables, creates no CO2 or greenhouse gases, pollutants, etc. And don't get me started about the waste everywhere...

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

Ha...I was talking to someone who told me that he likes to shake up greenies at cocktail parties by telling them if they are really "green" they support nuclear power, right? Because it's the only proven capacity power source that uses no non-renewables, creates no CO2 or greenhouse gases, pollutants, etc. And don't get me started about the waste everywhere...

I love jerking their chains as well. Tell your friend to remind them that countries like France get most of their electricity from nuclear. That really drives the greenie weenies crazy.

[Setec Astronomy]

He used to work in the industry, so he knows all the stats. It was a pretty interesting discussion...those countries had coherent energy policies and standards which allowed them to be successful at it.

PS I'd like to consider myself a pragmatist on this...I'm all for reducing (energy) waste, so in the same way you pointed out that power plants don't recover their waste heat, if we can recover the braking energy of 100 million cars...it's kind of like emissions controls, 35 years ago everyone thought that would destroy cars as we know them, that they would be too expensive, have no power, crappy driveability...but we engineered our way past that. You never hear anyone say "boy, this 500 HP really sucks in my Corvette because of the smog gear" or "I could afford to buy a new car if only they didn't have emission controls" or "OMG, I have to use UNleaded gas???" (how many young Autopians don't rememer that gas used to have lead in it ). Anyway, a will to do it and the economy of scale are important factors, and it looks to me that hybrid systems that are transparent to the end user and affordable are just about here--there was an article about the new Lexus big SUV-h in the paper here last week.

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by Setec Astronomy

He used to work in the industry, so he knows all the stats. It was a pretty interesting discussion...those countries had coherent energy policies and standards which allowed them to be successful at it.

PS I'd like to consider myself a pragmatist on this...I'm all for reducing (energy) waste, so in the same way you pointed out that power plants don't recover their waste heat, if we can recover the braking energy of 100 million cars...it's kind of like emissions controls, 35 years ago everyone thought that would destroy cars as we know them, that they would be too expensive, have no power, crappy driveability...but we engineered our way past that. You never hear anyone say "boy, this 500 HP really sucks in my Corvette because of the smog gear" or "I could afford to buy a new car if only they didn't have emission controls" or "OMG, I have to use UNleaded gas???" (how many young Autopians don't rememer that gas used to have lead in it ). Anyway, a will to do it and the economy of scale are important factors, and it looks to me that hybrid systems that are transparent to the end user and affordable are just about here--there was an article about the new Lexus big SUV-h in the paper here last week.

When I called on the power generation industry, what drove me crazy was that they thought nothing of wasting electricity, because, don't ya know, they make tons of it.

I question the benefits of hybrids, because of several factors. One, whether we're talking about lithium ion or nickle metal hydride batteries, we're talking about swapping foreign oil for either foreign batteries, or foreign rare metals.

Secondly, even if economies of scale bring the costs down for hybrids, you're still increasing the complexity of the car or truck, with extra components over a regular gas or diesel vehicle. Hybrid advocates can't seem to grasp the concept that you're using extra energy to make the electric motor, the battery, and the high voltage wiring (which itself is a huge extra component). Then you're using more energy shipping it to the assembly plant. Then you're using extra energy in the plant, in extra material handling and robotics to handle integrating those parts into the assembly process.

Environmental benefits, to society, are also highly questionable when the toxic emissions and hazardous waste production of the battery and high voltage wiring is taken into consideration.

[HappyWax]

I am not an expert and I don't drive a Hybrid -so don't lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.

In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.

Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[Setec Astronomy]

I'm sorry, my mother's (non-hybrid) Buick, which was built in Canada, has wheels from China, and suspension arms from South Korea, and who knows how many other imported parts. How about for her next car, if it's a hybrid, we make the wheels and suspension arms here, so we can make up for the foreign metals in the battery? For that matter, why don't we make the batteries here? Let's take one of those idled GM plants and make batteries for the Volt.

I guess you can make an argument for or against anything. Sure, if a hybrid vehicle has more parts, it's going to (perhaps) take more energy to manufacture it. But any car has parts...which take energy to manufacture, so why don't we stop making new cars? And just fix the old ones? Or stop driving? That would save TONS of energy.

I notice you didn't argue that my high-efficiency air conditioners required more parts or more energy to produce, negating their benefit. And I bet it's going to take a lot of energy (and money) to build a nuclear power plant, especially today. So I guess if it takes 10 or 20 or 30 years to make a profit, it's not worth doing? Or why bother buying a house...it's going to take SO long to pay off that mortgage...
See? You can make an argument for or against anything. I guess GM's description of their current financial situation was fine...they were just making an argument FOR it.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by HappyWax

I am not an expert and I don't drive a Hybrid -so don't lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.

In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.

And so are the knee-jerk reactions in the other direction. Aren't many vehicle purchases statements? Like "I have gobs of money, so I bought this vehicle to show everyone" or "I put this fart-can exhaust on my car to prove how much I like to get pulled over" or "I have a penis of inferior size, so I bought this vehicle to compensate".

How come only a Prius gets held to this litmus standard? I don't hear anybody complaining about how their new HD tv isn't really more environmentally friendly than their old CRT that used twice as much electricity because of blah blah blah or how people shouldn't get new cell phones because the batteries (not to mention the phones) come from a foreign country...I'd be willing to bet that the amount of cell phone and other mobile device (PDA, laptop, bluetooth) batteries far exceeds what is manufactured/disposed of for hybrid cars right now...where is the hue and cry over that?

[HappyWax]

Setec,

Len A questions the benefits of Hybrids - saying they may not be environmentally all they are cracked up to be -Which may or may not be true.
I am saying that many people who buy Hybrids may know this, and will buy a hybrid regardless because --->Buying A Hybrid it is supporting (through $$) the idea of progressive thinking and manufacturing.

[Setec Astronomy]

Originally Posted by HappyWax

Len A questions the benefits of Hybrids - saying they may not be environmentally all they are cracked up to be -Which may or may not be true.
I am saying that many people who buy Hybrids may know this, and will buy a hybrid regardless because --->Buying A Hybrid it is supporting (through $$) the idea of progressive thinking and manufacturing.

Sorry if I jumped down your throat. As I think I've said before in other threads, the "hybrid" idea goes back to the '73 oil embargo...but in those pre-historic days for electronics, a mechanical solution to braking-energy recovery was proposed...flywheels. From an engineering standpoint, it makes great sense...just like recovering waste heat from a power plant.

What I support is making things in this country. To paraphrase Ross Perot from his '92 presidential campaign, the way out of our economic troubles is to have robust manufacturing in this country, to put people to work at good wages...who will then PAY TAXES instead of being on unemployment. And the people who have the jobs at REALLY good wages, should definitely pay their share of taxes. I saw Warren Buffet on TV saying that according to the IRS, the top 100 earners from the most recent year that statistics were available, paid 17% average tax--bullhockey! That includes that hedge fund guy that made $3 billion--I'm sure he could afford a little more in taxes to help out Len A.

So the car companies go bankrupt, so we can buy an even larger percentage of imported cars, and all those dealer mechanics and salesmen and admin people can go work at Wal-Mart and Target part time at half their pay.

Whatever.

[Jakerooni]

Here's a question.. (because I randomly think like this) but for sake of thinking outside the norm if there's a succesful push to get hybrid's out and about (remember GM had a pure electric car years ago and it was sliently killed off with no reasoning behind it) But how would the government then recoupe the billions and billions of lost revenue from the always rising gasoline tax if no one is using it anymore (or a lot less of it as would be the desired result would be) After just handing out trillions of dollars I don't think for a second that any car manufacture or the government is ready to kill off that cash cow no matter what they want to preach on TV and other media streams. That's just entirely way to much money to simply let go of. I mean we really already have the technology in place to never have to use another drop of gasoline for anything.... There just has to be a reason why we don't use it

[Len_A]

Originally Posted by HappyWax

I am not an expert and I don't drive a Hybrid -so don't lynch me for saying this- but I think *for some* driving a Hybrid is more like casting a vote or making a statement for: wanting more efficient and environmentally friendly options.

In other words person X bought a Toyota Prius not because it actually was the most environmentally sound option but because it SAYS it is -and therefore is a vote, telling manufactures move that direction.

Of course that is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Two of my neighbors bought Priuses because of the mileage ratings. The problem is that the higher price they paid for a Prius last year, meant they need to keep the cars a year to two years longer just to break even. A couple of grand price difference is an awful lot of gasoline, even at $4 a gallon. I know there's some people who buy hybrids as a political statement, but I don't know any. All the hybrid owners I know did it because they thought they were saving money.