why some carnubas hard to remove?

The Lizard · 03-12-02, 10:49

I have just tried Griots Best of Show Wax. Supposed to have high carnuba content. It is very hard to remove compared to Meguairs GC which I had used before. Why is this??? Called Griots and they kind of admitted that this could be a problem and to use the detail spritz to help with it. Who wants to do a whole car like that??

They also claim it has no silicones in it and get into this "polymers and silicones are bad for the paint" rap. Anyone who really knows about this, please shed some light. I think almost every other wax out there probably has some sort of polymers and silicones. How about Souveran or Blitz?

I tried wiping it on and quickly wiping it off, leaving it on for anywhere from 15 minutes to 2 hours, etc. and wiping off....same thing, hard to remove unless used with detailer. Used cotton terry towels to remove.

It feels great and does have a nice shine. It appears to be a bit cloudy though. Reflections are not quite as sharp as they could be. I did one section and compared it to another that does not have the wax. The section with the wax was washed with Dawn, clayed with their clay (much better than Meguairs-yechh!), and then waxed - no paint cleaners, etc. Could the cloudy look be inherent in the wax? See any flaws with steps that could lead to that problem?

Is there a better WAX product out there that does not have this problem and performs better - comes off easily and has nice shine, etc? I would prefer to use a PC for application but am open to doing by hand.

Intermezzo · 03-12-02, 11:00

My understanding of it is that the solvent content or petroleum distillates play a factor in the user-friendliness of a wax, but I'm sure there are other factors involved.

Souveran, Paste Glaze, Blitz, all have silicones and polymers. Whether or not silicones and oils are bad for your paint is being debated right now at this thread:

Autopia Myths

The easiest waxes to use that I know of are Souveran, Paste Glaze, P21S (or S100) and Blitz

The Lizard · 03-12-02, 11:04

Can these all be used with PC or must you do by hand? Do you like one of these "hands down" over the others, and why? I think Souveran now has a liquid paste, have you any opinions on this?

Thanks for the link to the "myths" section. This forum is a virtual college education for detailing....I am not worthy

Seriously, I am spending my nights here! Great social lives we lizards have...

Intermezzo · 03-12-02, 11:32

I haven't tried P21S yet but it gets great reviews here. Out of the waxes I've tried, I like Souveran a tad more than Blitz, and I like Blitz considerably more than Paste Glaze. I give the edge to Souveran because it is extremely easy to use and is trim-friendly. Blitz is relatively easy to use and much more durable, but it will stain your trim. Paste Glaze is also a very easy wax to work with, but its durability is just way too low for me. People here say that Blitz provides great depth and Souveran provides both depth and shininess to your car. Probably true, but I've never done a side-by-side comparison.

If it's ease of use you are looking for and you don't mind shelling out the money ($70/8 oz can), then go with Souveran.

Go with Blitz if you are looking for an all-around good wax with good durability that's relatively easy to use. Also, a 10 oz can only costs $16.

I don't think you can go wrong with P21S either.

All of these waxes are paste waxes. You can use Blitz with your PC by spreading it on your PC pad with a butter knife. With souveran, it might be impractical because you're not supposed to let it dry. You apply to a panel and then wipe off immediately.

I haven't tried Liquid Souveran.

The Lizard · 03-12-02, 11:41

Really, thanks for the last myth link...it was very informative.

If you put on a trim detailer like Meguairs (slimey), wouldn't that prevent staining by Blitz? How much more durable would you say the Blitz is than Souveran? Have you ever used the Griots Best of Show? I wonder why it has this slightly cloudy appearance that dull sharp images a bit. Thanks for the info...

Intermezzo · 03-13-02, 01:05

I haven't tried griots best of show. I'm assuming you are an experienced detailer, so other than not following basic waxing essentials like applying out of the sun, not using fabric softener on your buffing towel, applying thin layers, etc etc, it's hard to say what could have caused the cloudiness and the difficulty in removal. What kind of towels are you using for buffing? What kind of prep work did you do?

Does the dullness in clarity seem worse than other waxes? Carnaba in general doesn't have the highest optics, but certainly no reflection should be so bad that one would call it "dull & cloudy". I've never applied any wax and thought the shine had dull reflectivity & sharpness, even with the tinting effects of carnauba and the rampant orange peel all over my car. You never had this problem with Gold Class, right? Does using a Quick Detail spray help the problem at all?

And yes, I've heard that dressing your trim with protectant prior to waxing will prevent trim-stain. I've never tried it myself, but I'm sure it would work. Good call!

"Really, thanks for the last myth link...it was very informative." You're welcome

If you like links, here are some links that oughta keep you busy for a while. If you are thinking of Blitz vs Souveran, the links below provide some info. Maybe they can help you make a decision.....or maybe not! Paralysis by analysis!!

Souveran
Souveran vs. Blitz
Blitz or Souveran
Longevity: Souveran vs. Blitz
Souveran on White is Incredible
Souveran on the Black Car
Just Finished My First Blitz Job

It's amazing the kind of info a search will yield.

puterbum · 03-13-02, 01:09

What a guy that Intermezzo is! 999 posts too! Happy 1K bday!

Guess My Name · 03-13-02, 06:38

WAx IMO should be applied by hand since there are no abrasives.

VetteHead · 03-13-02, 06:51

I haven't used the Griot's wax, so I can't explain why it appears cloudy either. Sometimes carnuba waxes can become hydroscopic, i.e., cloudy due to water on the paint. You might want to buff out the cloudy area with some QD and a soft cloth to see if this removes the cloudiness.

I've used both Blitz and P21S carnuba. They're both good products. My personal preference is the P21S on my garage queens, but it's less durabile than the Blitz. You must remove P21S while it's still wet, so you apply a small amount to a small area (about a square foot or so) and them remove with a clean MF cloth. For real depth and gloss, complete waxing the whole car then mist a panel with some clear water (I use distilled water in a spray bottle) and buff with a soft cloth. This is the equivalent of spit-shining your shoes and it adds some extra brillance to the finish.

The Lizard · 03-13-02, 08:55

Intermezzo,

I would not classify myself as an experienced detailer like you and some of the moderators here, but I hope to get there soon. Initailly, I applied the wax too thick. So I went back and did it thinly and waited variable amounts of time before I took it off. In all cases, it came off kind of hard, had to use QD to spritz and rub off. I am using 100% cotton terry towels for removal of product. Never had this problem with Meguairs GC, it comes off easy. I just can't imagine doing the whole car with a product that comes off so hard, it would take too long. I have just done the trunk to test out the product.
Here are the steps I took with Griots - wash w/dawn, clay (their clay is good), wax with PC application. The car is only 1 year old, therefore I did not polish. Kind of afraid to use an abrasive polish (their #3 machine), might try later. What would you use if you wanted to get rid of light swirl marks, etc., with minimal wear to clearcoat? Any one with experience with Griots machine #3? Anyway, I would like to find an alternative to this wax that comes off easy. Too bad because it has nice hard finish.

blkZ28Conv · 03-13-02, 09:32

P21S easy on / easy off great shine for a carnauba. This product should be applied by hand. It is like rubbing coconut oil into the paint. The shine and protection is good. I can wax the entire Lexus in less than 1 hour
.

T.C. · 03-13-02, 09:12

Your problem with the cloudy finish may be due to water. I know that all carnauba that I work with(mostly Zymol) hates water. As far as the difficulty removing, how cold was it, was it humid, and how long did you let it sit? I always remove higher grade carnauba products fairly quickly as I have had a hard time removing some after leaving them on the paint for too long. I have also found that in the cold, carnauba can be a pain in the butt to get off. Good luck and let us know how you make out.