Newbie - black Porsche - Great Forum!

jviveiros · 03-12-02, 09:09

Hey folks;

I just found this forum this morning and I'm new here. Great content and some real experts... I'll be doing alot of reading.
Sorry in advance for the long post and revisiting such a beaten topic.

I am a hobbiest and I've been rebuilding cars for about 15 years with pretty good results. Finally bought my dream car, and did my first Black paint job (dupont lacquer base clear). I am a little anal about getting things perfect and this forum has convinced me that I'm not going crazy. Most folks tell me I'm nuts to try to get the finish better than what it is. But I'm not happy with my results. I don't know it all (maybe not even much) but I'm intersted in learning.

No matter how hard I try, I can't seem to get that wet, no swirl finish on my paint! Its driving me crazy! I did use a rotary buffer, Meguirs fine cut cleaner followed by #9 swirl remover and #7 (per a rep. at meguiras). This has normally worked very well for me in the past but I've always avoided Black for this very reason. It looks OK but I see what I call "swirls" or "spider webs" in direct sun. I've seen the BMW hood in the infamous post here and its not that bad but its no where near as good as his final results... and thats what I want.

I just recieved a full compliment of Zaino products and the recommended cotton towels. I quickly tried a fender with great hopes of but I'm not satified. Anyone have any recommendations on a process, suggestion or techniques that might help with the pains of Black? Should I switch to buffing by hand, a different product(s), Micro fiber instead of cotton, praying a Novina??

rd_volvo · 03-12-02, 09:44

Hey J,

I'm sure the veterans will help you on this board but if you
want to try something, get a can of Collinite Marque.
I feel it some how it fills in the the swirls.

It's the only thing I found that squelches direct sunlight
swirley's. I have Zaino on my dark green car right now
and like it very much except for the marring in direct
sunlight and under night lights.

It's overcast right now in New York and I took a look
at my finish and I don't see any hint of swirls which
leads me to believe that the marring is in the Zaino layer.

Just something to try if all alse fails.

blkZ28Conv · 03-12-02, 10:39

I have two black cars and the search for the spiderweb- free finish is a neverending quest. I have settled for a swirl-free, high-gloss, deep finish that under certain lightning denoted its flaws but looks fantastics the rest of the time. I have had excellent results from Zaino on my Z28 in comparison to defects seen when the car was waxed with carnuba. On the Lexus I use P21S which works great on its finish. Unfortunately most of the spiderwebbing comes from washing the cars even when using proper equipment, technique and lots of H2O. I have noticed that since I only drive the Z28 in perfect weather and wash her only once a month that the amount of spiderwebbing creation is not as bad as when I use to wash very frequently. Is there an answer to having a swirl and spiderweb free black car...

Short Cut · 03-12-02, 07:40

I think that you essentially have two methods for swirl removal. First is to use an abrasive. I've used FI II and SMR on my black car using a PC. After two coats of SMR the swirls were significantly reduced. Then comes part two which is to layer a product on several times to help to fill the remaining swirls. My black car is the only vehicle that hasn't had a polymer sealant because I like the effect of layered wax on black.

So far the waxes that I have used are:

Souveran
Meguiar's #26 liquid
3M Showcar Paste Wax
3M Showcar liquid

They all have different looks. Even the 3M paste looks different than the 3M liquid.

Brad B. · 03-12-02, 07:47

You need to back up and look at your prep first before you get to the sealant/wax part. The Fine Cut cleaners and swirl removers are not the finest in the industry. Be sure you are removing all the swirls first. I suggest using 3M Finesse It II and then Pinnacle Paint Cleanser. They give me my best results. Keep at it until you remove the swirls entirely. It can be done! Especially if this is a new paint job and certainly if it's lacquer.

I assume you are using quality soft foam buffer pads? Are you confident your buffing techniques aren't "causing" more swirls? Try some hand work if you think that might help.

Don't settle, especially since you went to the trouble of painting the car. Fresh paint deserves perfect results. Keep experimenting with small panels until you find a system that works then apply it to the rest of the car.

Don't give up!

jviveiros · 03-13-02, 06:35

Brad, I'm inclined to beleive that my prep work is the problem but, I don't know if its technique, product or both. I've buffed my share of cars and usually recieve praise for the results but, I've never done black nor have I ever been this hell bent on perfection.

The paint is lacquer and I wet sanded the finish with 1500. I used a rotary buffer (1800 rpm). I compounded (fine cut) using a wool pad. Then did the swirl remover using a seperate finer wool pad made by 3M for the purpose (could be part of my problem?). I also tried a small amount of hand rubbing (with the #9 meguiars) to see if that helped, but it didn't make a difference (I may not have stuck with it long enough). Does the foam pads or using a PC make a significant difference? Is there a method for using the SMR? Should I not remove it with the machine or go over it once it hazes?

I ordered some 3M 39009 SMR for dark cars and I'm going to try that. If my technique is the problem, this may be a wasted excersize. Any suggestions beyond what the bottle says? Should I do it by hand? Is there a better product? I don't have a PC but I do have an air powered DA ( dual action sander/polisher). Would that be equivelant to the PC with the right pads? Any suggestions on pads, product, equipment?

blkZ28Conv · 03-13-02, 06:46

Do you think that it is possible to have a spider-web free finish on a black car without eventually destroying clearcoat over time? My black cars are swirl-free but trying to eliminate spider-webbing seems counter-productive and damaging in the long run to me. My goal is to minimize the spider-webbing and live with one of the drawbacks of black car optics.
Black cars... the best color ... the worst color ( from "Tales of a black car owner")

Brad B. · 03-13-02, 06:48

Stick with the buffer since that is what your experienced with. Use a LIGHT touch. EASE up when the product starts to thin out and don't buff it to a haze. Use PLENTY of product. Really keep it lubed up and stop shy of buffing it dry. (This is where I think some of the swirls are happening) Take off the remaining by hand. Be very careful here and use super soft towels at this stage, too. (do you hace good 100% soft cotton or microfiber? get plenty of them) You may even want to do an isolated experiment with this process then finish with a final hand application using back and forth application motion with a pure foam pad. (not a terry covered one for this)

A final compounding with the 39009 SMR and a soft foam pad might be a good idea. The quality of foam pads is more consistant and easier to deal with than wool pads. I use both myself but maybe for the final step give the foam a shot.

Even after the final foam pad buff a final lateral direction hand buff may be warranted. In fact,would suggest it.

jviveiros · 03-13-02, 07:04

Great instructions. I do have 100% made in USA cotton... I'm learning as I read here about MF and foam (and the different grades thereof).

My body shop supplier only carries one color foam pad, yellow. I see on CMA??? that white is what should be used for SMR. Should I get one (or the kit and try it with my DA) ? Would the micro fiber make a significant difference?

Sorry for all the questions, but is not often the horses a$$ gets educated by the horses mouth.

Brad B. · 03-13-02, 07:10

Give the yellow one a try but be sure it is very soft and forgiving. This is finesse work, not muscle work. You want the compound to do the work you don't want the pad itself to be forcing the issue, if that makes sense. And be sure to work the area well. You may have to go at it from a couple angles and from a couple directions a couple times. Let the weight of the buffer do the work. It's slow going but ultimately rewarding. Keep at it!

jviveiros · 03-15-02, 06:40

I got the 3m 39009 SMR yesterday and had a little time so tried the top of 1 fender. I lightly hit the suface with Meguires fine cut cleaner using the rotatry buffer and applied the SMR by hand. What a difference! Still not perfect but the best results I've seen so far. Thanks for all the insight!

Brad B. · 03-15-02, 06:49

WooHoo! Keep at it! Technique! Technique!