Layering (again)

[molydood]

Hi all,

I want to understand the theory behind layering compatibility of certain product types

Things I think I know already:
-waxs need to breath and must not have sealant on top of them
-waxs can be placed on top of certain sealants, acrylic based ones seem to be best for this like Klasse AIO/KSG
-certain manufacturers make both a sealant and a wax and hence you could probably assume that they would be compatible
-some sealants/wax's can be layered/benefit from layering, but some require spit shine, some don't

That didn’t take long did it, now onto the things I don’t know:
Sealants/waxs can be acrylic, polymer or petroleum based?
How do we know which category they fall into? Look at the ingredients?
Do the petroleum ones act as solvents when layering hence spit shine method required?
What about layering those on top of other products? Which ones are compatible and why?
and why does klasse layer well if it has cleaners? is it just the KSG as opposed to AIO?

I am not looking for a list of which products are compatible with whichever other ones (although that would be very handy), more so the reasons behind it. Get a scientific as you like with any information as I am really wanting to get my head around the 'why's more than the 'how's

Cheers!
Martin

[Parmesan]

and why does klasse layer well if it has cleaners? is it just the KSG as opposed to AIO?

Precisely. the AIO is the cleaner/polish portion of the Klasse twins and will prep and clean the paint surface, providing a base for the KSG to go on top of. The KSG is the full-fledged sealant glaze which can be layered a few times over for more protection and shine.

the rest of your questions i have no clue, hope some others can help with those!

[molydood]

it's a good start, thanks
I do hope somebody can answer the other questions which have been bugging me for a while now

[SVR]

Sealants come in many forms
Acrylic - polymer, old school polymer (dusty and whiten plastics) and other special types with no actual name

The type should be stated on suppliers website or on the bottle
Acrylics really require a prep step
Prime before AJ, Nano clean before nano seal etc etc

Polymers seem to work fine with glazes like RMG, VM and others but acrylics do not thus requiring prime which you apply after the glaze.

Can apply layers of acrylics and then polymers but I find putting polymers on first doesn't provide the durability and slickness of the other way.

Ultra gloss and fireglaze DS work great, Carlack 68 then KSG or AJ is superb, Duragloss Polish bonding agent and UPP also good

If you want a list of all my combinations, PM me
I test certain products from over 60 brands every day I am not detailing cars or delivering products

[Bence]

Originally Posted by molydood

Hi all,

I want to understand the theory behind layering compatibility of certain product types

Things I think I know already:
-waxs need to breath and must not have sealant on top of them
-waxs can be placed on top of certain sealants, acrylic based ones seem to be best for this like Klasse AIO/KSG
-certain manufacturers make both a sealant and a wax and hence you could probably assume that they would be compatible
-some sealants/wax's can be layered/benefit from layering, but some require spit shine, some don't

That didn’t take long did it, now onto the things I don’t know:
Sealants/waxs can be acrylic, polymer or petroleum based?
How do we know which category they fall into? Look at the ingredients?
Do the petroleum ones act as solvents when layering hence spit shine method required?
What about layering those on top of other products? Which ones are compatible and why?
and why does klasse layer well if it has cleaners? is it just the KSG as opposed to AIO?

I am not looking for a list of which products are compatible with whichever other ones (although that would be very handy), more so the reasons behind it. Get a scientific as you like with any information as I am really wanting to get my head around the 'why's more than the 'how's

Cheers!
Martin

Martin,

what you obviously don't know:

- Waxes don't need to breath. They cure - when they have aminofunctional components in them. The process uses the moisture from the ambient air, but this is not breathing. There is no such thing that they "mustn't have" a sealant on the top of them.
- Sealants just "swim" on the top of the wax. In most cases, they are unable to bond to an oil-rich wax. If the wax contains synthetic ingredients, a sealant may bond to it, but the life expentancy is still less than normal.
- Waxes can be put on every type of sealant, no matter if it is acrylic, resin, whatever based.
- The fact that a manufacturer makes a carnauba wax AND a sealant doesn't necessarily mean that they would be cross-compatible.
- Lot of sealants and waxes can layer - and therefore benefit from layering, but some solvents are strong enough to eat away most of the underlying layers of previously applied products.
- No wax "requires" spit shining.

- Waxes are khm, waxes. They can be natural and synthetic.
- Sealants are synthetic and they have some kind of polymer base.
- There are blends as well; part sealant, part wax.
- Almost all car care products based on or contains petroleum distillates.
- The spit shine method is always optional, never required.
- You can always layer waxes on top of other products.
- Oils inhibit the bonding process of synthetics, but others are pretty much compatible. When incompatibility occurs, the active ingredients are unable to form a homogeneous layer on the surface, which causes streaking, smearing, etc.
- Even cleaner type products can layer to a certain point - but it greatly depends on the exact application technique. Two layers of AIO is always smoother, denser than one. That is/can be the gradual cleaning and the denser acrylic structure of the subsequent layers.
But you can speak of true layering using pure sealants and refined wax formulas. Generally no cleaner type products.

[molydood]

SVR,
thanks for the feedback.
What is prime? (as in Jeffs?)
May I ask what makes you think acrylics need prep? Is there any theory behind this or just what you know from experience?

…….and how come you test all these products?!

Cheers!

[molydood]

Thanks Bence, some questions on your comments

Originally Posted by Bence

- Lot of sealants and waxes can layer - and therefore benefit from layering, but some solvents are strong enough to eat away most of the underlying layers of previously applied products.
- No wax "requires" spit shining.

So assuming they are hydrogen bonding, can we speed up the curing process by spraying the panels with water? Or is there something special about the moisture in the air?
Also, I have read that a carnuba can turn yellow if it can't breath/cure. Do you believe this to be nonsense? I have read it numerous times.

Originally Posted by Bence

- Waxes can be put on every type of sealant, no matter if it is acrylic, resin, whatever based.

Just to be clear, do you bellieve that ALL waxes can be placed on top of ALL sealants? Or are you simply saying that there are no rules regarding what can be layered and what cannot? To expand on my original question; I am trying to establish these rules, so that trial and error is not the only way of determining compatibiliy. If the rules do not involve the polymer, acrylic etc, then what DO they involve?

Originally Posted by Bence

- No wax "requires" spit shining.

as I understand it; the spit shine method has one purpose and that is to enable layering of the same product (without the solvent breaking down previous layer). Are you saying that this is not the purpose of the spit shine method? Or are you saying that the spit shine method simply has no purpose?


Thanks again
Martin

[Accumulator]

molydood- Welcome to Autopia!

Spitshining is primarily used to allow layering of wax in a short timeframe, basically one-coat-right-after-another with no waiting for the wax to cure. The "spit" mitigates the solvent action of the wax so it doesn't disturb the initial application(s). If the wax has already been on there a while you don't need to spitshine unless there's some very unusual high solvent content involved and in that case I'd question whether the spitshining would sufficiently mitigate the solvent action. I've never encountered a (paste) wax like that anyhow and spitshining isn't really applicable to liquid waxes.

[molydood]

Thanks for the welcome

What you say makes perfect sense regarding the spit shine method, cheers. I wonder if the water reacts with the solvents, or if it just just forms a protective layer to stop the wax layers reacting with one another

[Accumulator]

Originally Posted by molydood

... I wonder if the water reacts with the solvents, or if it just just forms a protective layer to stop the wax layers reacting with one another

I doubt that it literally reacts, more likely just dilutes/buffers. FWIW many of us prefer to use a (preferably low-cleaning power) QD instead of water for the "spit" and to chill said QD prior to use.

[Bence]

molydood,

The term "active ingredient", is defined as that part of the sealant or generally "polish" (as per the raw material industry) left behind in the form of a film on the polished surface after application.

In the case of the curable amine silicones, a reactive alkoxy group undergoes a condensation reaction that provides a crosslinked film on the surface. Aminofunctional silicones are compatible with other silicone fluids and resins and therefore may be blended to create the desired polish performance.

The necessary moisture is very little; it is a fine balance act between drying out vs. overwetting. The active ingredients may not crosslink quickly enough to form a strong, durable barrier when the ambient air is too dry, letting them flash dry. Curing is getting slower with the increasing humidity level. Too much moisture, and the actives are washed out - the film won't be durable. That's why you have to avoid rain, even morning dew with curing sealant layers for at least 12-72 hours (product dependent). So, when you spray water to a curing sealant, you are compromising its durability.

Waxes don't cure in this same context, only when they contain curable synthetic active ingredients.

The yellowing of carnauba is mostly gone with modern chemistry. The "wax needs to breath" is BS in its truest and simplest form.

Yes, theoretically all waxes can be put on any sealant, but few waxes can be put on top of sealants.

You'll be experiencing a certain degree of layering with all products, and all products work the best with 2-3 coats. Of course, there are a few exceptions, for example 1Z Glanz or the very similar Rex alternative (both are solventy water-thin liquids), which readily remove/eat away all underlying layers of previously applied protection (however, this can be addressed too). Trial & error is an important part in this detailing world, because the manufacturers develop their products with their own system in mind. Therefore you can experience incompatibility issues but unexpected compatibilities as well. Verdict: you won't be able to set up Always True Rules. It is just impossible. General rules exist - with exceptions.

Your perception of the spit shining method is correct, and Accumuator described you further. But no wax "needs" spit shining. It is always optional to bring out even more shine and wetness. We - Nick T., Bill D, Accumulator and myself are dedicated spit shiners, because it is a wonderful method of perfecting a surface. It is tedious, so it is reserved for special moments and occasions.

[molydood]

Bence, thanks for taking the time to go into some of the detail for me, I understand things much better this way.

So the amine silicones are present in all sealants but NOT all waxs? And thus sealants are (generally) more sensitive to atmospheric conditions due to the moisture dependency (for curing)?

Because you state that almost all products (sealants and wax) contain petroleum, this means that a spit shine is almost always required if you want to layer products (sealant or wax) and don’t want to sit out the natural curing period (12-72 hours)?
This would contradict the methodology of applying multiple sealants (or amino-waxs) in one day (which some people do).

Cheers
Martin