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02-19-02, 08:50 #1
Here's the question I always get asked..
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- Brooklyn, NY
and before we have any wars - remember, this is to cover ALL of the good stuff - Blackfire, Zaino and Klasse.
A couple of weeks ago, while washing and throwing a coat of P21S on my truck, a friend was over and asked me how I got the truck so nice & shiny
I mentioned the Klasse - and we got into a whole discussion about the Big 3 (he had heard of them).
His take - all fancy stuff that didn't do anything more than the typical waxes. Furthermore - he asked - if this stuff is so good, and works so well - why haven't any of the big guys (Turtle Wax, Meguiar's, Mothers) done anything to copy the formulations?
I'm no chemist, nor a lawyer (dunno if it's just impossible to reverse engineer the stuff, or if the stuff is patented) - but I'd like to hear the general consensus - why do you think that none of the bigger companies have jumped on the polymer (or in the case of Klasse, acrylic) bandwagon just yet?
(btw - before I get flamed - I did remind the guy that he made those comments right after he mentioned how much he liked the shine).Too Many ads? Becoming a member of Autopia has its privileges. Sign up here .
If you're not supposed to eat animals, why are they all made out of <b>meat</b>?
2002 Mercedes-Benz ML320
02-19-02, 09:25 #2
They don't have the technology. You don't see all the top chem eng's and chemists going to work for zymol or turtle wax. It might also have to do with cost. Those companies have much more overhead and might have to sell the product at a higher margin and too high a price.
Or maybe it is because turtlewax already has the majority market share....why change anything?
The products you mention are geared towards a very small percentage of the population. Large company's are not interested in that. They are interested in selling bulk generic professional products to detailshops by the case, and selling inexpensive car care products that 95% of people will buy over the highest quality polymer products available. Remember, the average person washes their car 4-6 times a year, and waxes 1-2 times a year.....and doesn't want to spend more than 5 dollars on a wax!
02-19-02, 09:30 #3
- Join Date
- Mar 2001
I think Meguiars has made steps in that direction with the Gold Class wax. It will give a shine to rival Klasse or Zaino, but to me it doesnt seem to offer the longevity. Then again, at half the price, one might not complain at a lack of strength. The shine is there though.
02-19-02, 09:33 #4
I don't think you need to worry about being flamed. It's a straightforward question and if anyone flames you for what you just asked, then they need to get a life!
This is my take on this issue. I think the main issue is cost. It would be asking a lot for the average weekend detailer to really appreciate the difference between a coat of Blitz vs. Meguiar's carnauba wax or the difference between a coat of Klasse AIO vs. Turtle Wax Formula 2001 (both polymer sealants). Why manufacture a product that costs a lot more to make that the general detailing public (& even professional detailers) will not buy (there are exceptions, of course). As much money as some high-end detailing websites make, it's peanuts compared to the kind of money that meguiar's and TW make with their high-volume sales of low-cost products. BKZ, which would sell for at least twice as much as the average OTC product probably would not sell very well at places like Pepboys or Autozone.
02-19-02, 09:34 #5
Hi mister KMart man, could ya point me to the car care isle, and tell me if any of that there waxey stuff is on bluelight?
Whattheheck?!? I have to prep and clay and layer and use MF towels? What is a MF towel? This stuff is crap!! Good ole Turtle Wax only needs one coat! Commnon maw, lets get.
You get the point. Everyone likes the results we get with our products, but how many people do you know that are willing to spend the time you do on their vehicles.
02-19-02, 09:41 #6
Originally posted by laynlow
... Everyone likes the results we get with our products, but how many people do you know that are willing to spend the time you do on their vehicles.
Average Joe want a one-step, rub on-rub off, go-drink-a-beer-product, so that's what the big K and Wally World generally give them. If it was easy, everyone would do it."I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)
02-19-02, 10:17 #7
There are some of these products sold at pep boys, Wally world and others.
Also some of those infomercials are selling polymer type sealants.
I think it has to do with pricing. Not many normal people are willing to part with the money we do on car care products.
Heck even these large Manuf. are discontinuing products we love because they do not sell; Examples would be Eagle 1 Concurs Tire dressing & Viking 100% cotton wash mitts to name a few.
different strokes for different folks!
02-19-02, 10:27 #8
- Join Date
- Sep 2001
- Brooklyn, NY
I'm guessing price must be more of a factor than I had taken into consideration.
See - I figured that a large shop could manufacture boatloads of the specialty stuff we use, relatively inexpensively. I can understand why a 10 man operation would be expensive with regards to Klasse, BF or Zaino - but when we're talking about the manufacturing power of a Turtle Wax - I really didn't think it would be all that expensive to make.
Of course - profit margins, as DK mentioned - are probably key as well. If it costs them nothing to make a can of wax, and it's selling - why bother making a product that will outsell it, if it will be less profitable (because it's more expensive to make)?If you're not supposed to eat animals, why are they all made out of <b>meat</b>?
2002 Mercedes-Benz ML320
02-19-02, 10:32 #9
Maybe they have done market research and have found a very small and niche market of AUTOPIANS who are very selective and only buy the best stuf on earth for their cars?
They figure if they sell waxes they will get repeat business due to the lacking in durability?
They are LAZY. LOL
02-19-02, 10:42 #10
- Join Date
- Jul 2001
- Subhuman ATL
I'll pile on here. It's all about business direction and what business philosophy each company creates for themselves.
As DK said, the vast majority of vehicle owners out there wash their cars a few times per year and maybe throw on a coat of wax once or twice a year (maybe.....). Cost and ease of use are by far the main priorities with these people. They're simply not willing to spend the $$ and the time to get the kind of results we Autopians expect. They appreciate the results we get for the most part but they're aren't willing to do the work necessary to get there.
For big companies like Turtle Wax and Meguiar's it pretty easy for them to conduct market research and consumer surveys to determine purchasing thresholds. What is the max price a consumer is willing to pay for a product? What is the max effort that consumer is willing to put forth to make their cars look good? How often are they willing to wash and wax their cars? Questions like this can quickly determine where the majority of consumer are in terms of products and prices. From there you develop a product line to meet this research.
Beyond product development and production the rest of the job is sales and marketing. The battles that go on for shelf space at major retailers are amazing. The products you see at Pep Boys or WalMart are in their specific locations for a reason. Nothing is haphazard at the big retailers. This is where big time marketing dollars come into play. And this is where the little guys like Zaino and Klasse are outgunned. So how do they get their products to market? By selling to the small distributors and dealers like CMA and TACSCAR. It's the only way the boutique mfr's can effectively distribute their products.
Zaino is probably a rare exception in that he wants limited distribution. His products simply would not sell at mass retail; the Zaino system breaks almost all the rules of successful marketing of car care products. Sal is much better off selling direct and to exclusive distributors who have intimate knowledge of his products and are willing to pass on that knowledge in order to ensure successful use of the products.
Turtle Wax and Meguiar's are big enough to find market niches and develop products to fill them. Not too many companies can say that. It doesn't make one company better than another but it does make them different. It's up to us to decide what we buy and put on our cars.
02-19-02, 10:43 #11
Very well put! Companies like Meguiar's, TW and Simonize aren't going to manufacture BKZ-like products for the same reason Viking is discontinuing their 100% cotton mitts and EO is discontinuing EO Concours. The vast majority of their customers don't care about PDMS based dressings and pure cotton mitts so why spend the extra money required to manufacture them?
02-19-02, 10:54 #12
My turn! My turn!
Since I live in Wal-Mart HQ's backyard, I know firsthand how hard it is to get a product on a shelf at Wal-Mart. In fact, Wally is requiring every vendor that they do business with to have a staffed office in our town by the end of 2003.... Further, our little town of 12,000 people has more hotels, 4 star restaurants, etc than anywhere else in the world per capita. It's great to be able to go eat the best steak in the world any night I want to, but I sure would hate to be a Wal-Mart vendor. I've got some good Wal-Mart stories if anyone's interested....
(I don't vend/work/contract/etc to Wal-Mart, just small town gossip stuff)
Anyway, next time you're with a non-detailing oriented friend, mention to them that Liquid Glass costs $17 for a bottle...watch their reaction. Then, tell them that the Klasse twins cost $40 for the set....then, if they can handle it, tell them about the BF kit for $60, or tell them about Vintage/Destiny/Atlantique....
People think we're nuts for spending $25 on a tin of P21S or $70 on a tin of Souveran...We're truly the elite of the auto cleaning world, so we're happy to buy these types of products. Joe 6-pack on the other hand, is figuring how much beer he could buy instead of a $70 tin of Souveran.
Just my $.02, and I concurr with everyone else's thoughts here.
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