What does a professional detail cost - Page 3

Scottwax · 12-10-01, 09:59

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Originally posted by Every Little Detail
Scott,
I once again have to disagree with you on a couple of points.
1/ You said you do 1000 cars/yr if this is truly the case then it would be next to impossible to do them by hand. You would be polishing for hours to even make any real difference on even minor swirls and marring. I would suggest to you that the products you are using are cosmetic in that they simply fill in the swirls. Which may be fine if you are seeing your customers really frequently.

Apparently you did not bother to read what I replied when you mentioned the amount of cars I do a year the last time.

I do not do 1000 details a year. I never said I did. I said I clean that many a year. Cleaning is not necessarily detailing. At least 60% are weekly washes. The other 40% are full details, exterior details or interior details.

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2/A modern wool pad that is safe for clearcoats is no more aggressive than a foam cutting pad. The differnce is what product you are going to use in most cases a cutting compound is not needed.

I guess you use wool pads, eh? You have to admit that no matter what product you are using, a wool pad still has more cutting power than a foam pad and will generate more heat.

I spend a lot of time fixing the damage done to cars by wool pads-usually caused by crappy dealer prep. I also know the detail shop that cleans cars for the used car lots on Division Street in Arlington, and walk down that street looking at cars on a sunny day and nearly every one of them has swirls.

I cannot see using a wool pad on paint that is in good condition. For serious paint defects or after wet sanding, then yes.

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3/The results a rotary can produce in the right hands cannot be matched by hand if the goal is to truly make a difference in the vehicles appearence before any glazes or waxes/polymers are to be applied.

I reject that completely. I get outstanding results buy hand and will put my work up against any machine buffed car. I never burn through paint or leave buffer marks, either.

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4/If somone is not able to afford or be trained on a rotary then the PC still would safe them a done of time unless they could vibrate their hand 2000x/min.

Huh?

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You may have these forum members running or driving from a pro who could detail there car once a year so that they could maintain it until the next year by simply hand washing it. $150-$200/yr is cheap when you consider the time required to do it yourself and by all the stuff involved.

Regardless, I would never let anyone get a wool pad near my paint. Several of my customers who have black cars specifically use my services because I polish and wax by hand.

You want to use a buffer and feel it gives you better results? Fine, you know your own skill level better than anyone else. I just wouldn't trust the average detail shop employee to use one on my car, especially one that does a lot of cars for used car lots-too many bad habits from doing details for $50.

Every Little Detail · 12-11-01, 08:17

Scott,
1/I did read exactly what you wrote it was unclear until know that you do 400 details out of 1000 appointments a year. Unless these cars are in like new condition all you can do by hand with just about any polish is glazing and filling in any swirls. The heat generated by either a wool pad or a foam pad allows the paint defects to be corrected through a burnishing effect. If you had any experience in using a rotary you would know that foam pads actually generate more heat than a wool pad.

2/ I agree that a wool pad has more cutting power than a foam pad although there are many types to choose from in both varieties. I have never found anything better than the genuine lambswool pad sold by autoint.com for dark colured cars. Maybe you can let me in on your secret for getting rid of swirls and marring caused by inexperienced or sloppy work with a rotary. My experience is that any marring caused by a machine can only be corrected by a rotary in the right hands and possibly followed by the PC for perfection.

3/ The reason you see swirls on all the dealer preped cars are they are leaving out a step i.e. going back over the car with a finishing product and a foam finishing pad.These products contain only a small amount of abrasives and alot of cleaners the combo will take out all the micro marring caused by the cutting compound.

4/I a car was in like new condition I would use the PC polishing component with a finishing product. My reference to your hand not being able to vibrate at 2000x/min is in reference to the action that the PC emulates. A couple of passes with the PC is the same as you polishing a 2'x2' area for 10 min by hand. As far as I know time is money in this business.

5/ Perhaps to settle this debate let us imagine a 99 Black BMW 325i with minor swirls a few etchings in the paint from bird droppings and a little industrial fallout from being parked outside during the work day. The car was detailed with a polymer 6 months ago. You do half the car your way and I'll do half the car the way I think it should be done. I would ABC my half to neutralize any residual acid caused by the industrial fallout, acid rain etc. remove any metal particles and bring the paint to the perfect PH level. I would then polish with Valueguard Pre Conditioner using the rotary set at 1200rpm with a genuine Lambswool pad and follow it up with an application of OEM Onestep polymer using the PC and a black foam pad from CMA. You would have also done your stuff to the other side using your protectall wash and a hand application of whatever polish you use follwed by the wax or polymer of your choice. Now we wipe down the hood with alcohol to remove the polmer and any polishes. I guarantee my side will be swirl free and have a brillant shine, what will your side look like? That is the true test!
with

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DETAILKING · 12-11-01, 09:37

I am sure both sides will look good, but I am a firm believer of going as mild as you can to get the job done. So many detailers grab harsh pads and abrasives as a common routine. I am sorry, but I don't need my clear coat leveled out every time some scratches develop! After a couple years there will be nothing left.

My STEEL GREY BMW was swirled up at the dealer when they washed it for me, and I had GREAT results by hand with 3M SMR, which is very mild, and a top coat of sealant. My neighbor often gets frustrated watching me wash my car and seeing how perfect it comes every time, which he is always out there applying stuff to it once a month with a buffer. He does'nt know how to use it and ends up swirling his car up, but the carnubas he uses hides it till after a few washes when it wears off. It's like a catch 22....abrasives remove scratches, but put finer ones in the paint. No doubt a skilled detailer with a rotary can provide great results, but so many products out there are easy and fast to use by hand, I rarely find it necessary to grab the machine.

Also, the ABC system is a thing of the past....most major car manufactures now recommend CLAY.

YoSteve · 12-11-01, 09:48

Quote:

Originally posted by DETAILKING
My neighbor often gets frustrated watching me wash my car and seeing how perfect it comes every time, which he is always out there applying stuff to it once a month with a buffer. He does'nt know how to use it and ends up swirling his car up, but the carnubas he uses hides it till after a few washes when it wears off.

DK, don't just sit there, help him!

detailers are not allowed to withhold their powers for bad

DETAILKING · 12-11-01, 10:00

But this guy knows everything there is about detailing......if you know what I mean....so am of little help ......

YoSteve · 12-11-01, 10:12

I'm sure he'd love to see me, who waxes my car exactly twice a year and washes it almost everyweekend. He'd be out there waxing as dry with QD to a nice shine. I'd be like, Wow, how often do you wax your car? Last time was April for me and it still looks nice (gloat gloat)

Some old dogs out there never learn new tricks.

Redcar GUY · 12-11-01, 10:29

Quote:

Originally posted by YoSteve.Com

Some old dogs out there never learn new tricks.

I am 23 and if I had a $1 for every time I have said that under my breath I would have A new Z06!

Yell00ITR · 12-11-01, 10:30

How can clay replace a paint prep system like ABC? I havent used ABC, just curious. As far as I know, clay WILL NOT remove any ferrous deposits (I have them on the top of my rear bumper on the Integra, not the BMW) nor will it provide the solvent action. I love clay, but I still think the best solution (if the case warrants it) is to clay then follow up with a paint cleaner (such as PPCL, HD-CLeanse, etc.) to remove things that are not just on the surface of the clearcoat.

The Green Hornet · 12-11-01, 10:41

On the subject of detailing, I'd have to say that saving money and doing my way are the reasons I do it myself. I know the job will be do the way I want it and I know what to expect with the results.

As far as saving money, well...you be the judge. I clicked on the link for DetailWorks, and WOW...$4.50 to apply Rain-X to the windsheild...nearly 20 bucks to do the car? $10 to "detail" the trunk? A host of other charges where they are cleaning your clock. It's as bad as a full service car wash or a dealership. I realize that everyone has to make a profit, but when you're making 200-400% profit, well to me that's price gouging, and I'll have none of it.

A BOTTLE of Rain-X is about $6, and I'll apply it myself, thank you

DETAILKING · 12-11-01, 10:46

ferrous particles completely that are imbedded in the paint. I do agree that it will take care of any surface contamination, but it simply will not lift those particals out of the paint like clay can.

Here are some links showing the major manufacturers recommending clay:

http://208.245.156.149/chrysler.htm

http://208.245.156.149/chryslr2.htm

http://208.245.156.149/chryslr3.htm

http://208.245.156.149/ford.htm

http://208.245.156.149/gm.htm

http://208.245.156.149/hyundai.htm

http://208.245.156.149/toyota.htm

http://208.245.156.149/isuzu.htm

http://208.245.156.149/isuzu2.htm

Clay is a lot more work (physically) and more time-consuming than the Chemical process so if you are a professional detailer it would make sense to use the chemical methods instead of clay.

Yell00ITR · 12-11-01, 10:58

Wow! Thanks for the links. However, since they are from Clay Magic's site, they may not be telling the whole story. Still very useful though.

Now, I remember Ron K stating that in the case of ferrous particles, clay will only remove the portion above the surface of the clear, not the embedded particles. I know that clay does not remove the ones I have.

Also, I recall at least one or two listmembers having poor results with clay that were able to remove the ferrous deposits with the ABC system..

DETAILKING · 12-11-01, 11:01

And would think it was the other way around. I mean, think of a spliter in your finger....do you dip it in acid or grab tweezers? I would tend to think that an acid wash would only remove the top surface that is exposed as the mechanical action of the clay to smooth the surface will pull away any contaminants.......

Whatever the case, use what works best for you......