Real important to wait 12 hours...

[Mr. Chemist]

BW...here's a thought...
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.

[SteveOst]

Originally posted by Mr. Chemist
Well...I'm just a dumb ol formulator of car care products...but I guess I'll just have to eat some crow here..I never should have posted "Huh?"

Seriously...using chemical terms incorrectly does not educate, it miss-informs.

Personally I don’t want to become a chemistry teacher, at this point, I prefer to emphasize process and product. I'm just a formulator, I'll leave that education stuff up to the chemical engineers...but if I see something that is really out of whack...I will mention it. Hopefully in the future I will get better at it..but hey I’m a nubi here. This is not as much fun as my beakers.

Great post! Very valid points. However, your answer brings up a slighly off-topic question. What's the difference between a "formulator" and a "chemical engineer?"

[DETAILKING]

Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure.

----------> Can you be more specific on what type of "chemical change" the air goes through? What does it change to? Or does the air just aid in the evaporation of solvent? Lot's of polymers are Air Cured, moisture cured,etc. Wouldn't you say that the Air and/or moisture (humidity) acts as a catalyst if an excess of it speeds up the curing process?


BW...here's a thought...
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.

---------------------------------------->If the oil interferes even slightly with the crosslinking and decreases the "much sought after durability" that people seek, why include it in a formulation? What benefit does it have in a polymer formulation? I don't agree with the "complete crosslinking" statement as the physical properties of a final cured polymer depend more on which ones are used to begin with. Not every polymer that is completelly crosslinked is hard, brittle, chips, fades,etc. Different polymers have different properties. Selection is important. If an oil is added in order to attain some desirable properties at the expense of durability, it sounds like someone better go back to the benchtop.......

[DETAILKING]

Originally posted by SteveOst
Great post! Very valid points. However, your answer brings up a slighly off-topic question. What's the difference between a "formulator" and a "chemical engineer?"

A Formulator is typically a chemist that is involved in the R+D, the product development, testing, and final formulation on a laboratory "bench-top" scale. A chemical engineer is the one that takes that "recipe" and develops a process design and industrial equipment to manufacture it on a larger scale, with some degree of automation. I know this....it's what I do!

[BW]

Originally posted by DETAILKING
BW...here's a thought...
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.

---------------------------------------->If the oil interferes even slightly with the crosslinking and decreases the "much sought after durability" that people seek, why include it in a formulation? What benefit does it have in a polymer formulation? I don't agree with the "complete crosslinking" statement as the physical properties of a final cured polymer depend more on which ones are used to begin with. Not every polymer that is completelly crosslinked is hard, brittle, chips, fades,etc. Different polymers have different properties. Selection is important. If an oil is added in order to attain some desirable properties at the expense of durability, it sounds like someone better go back to the benchtop.......

If Sal or the black forest people from Klasse decide to add oil, my guess is that it's to alter the appearance of a sealant. But doesn't this make oil the only source of shine?

[Cal]

Mr. Chemist

You said:

Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard.

Does this mean I should steer clear of "ye-olde" Klasse All-In-One which I just applied to my baby today? On the bottle it says:
'It polishes to "WET-LOOK" shine and locks into the paint, seals and protects with an elastic non-chip, shrink-proof, heat and scratch resistant acrylic finish.'

You've got me worried, but please bear with me and be kind... I'm only an apprentice and may have misunderstood.

Happy driving!
Cal

[Mr. Chemist]

Cal...no, dont worry, just because a product has some acrylic in it does not mean it's going to hardend up and chip. As with all chemical families, there are many, many different "acrylic" raw materials with different attributes.

[Cal]

Phew! That's a relief.

Thanks for your quick response Mr. Chemist. Appreciated

Cal
(Apprentice learning fast from Helpful Autopians )

[geekysteve]

Originally posted by DETAILKING
"Air, when used as a drying agent, goes through a chemical change and is not a catalyst. Air is simply important in having things dry and cure."

----------> Can you be more specific on what type of "chemical change" the air goes through? What does it change to? Or does the air just aid in the evaporation of solvent? Lot's of polymers are Air Cured, moisture cured,etc. Wouldn't you say that the Air and/or moisture (humidity) acts as a catalyst if an excess of it speeds up the curing process?


"BW...here's a thought...
Now to an interesting question about cross linking and oils....could it be that a certain amount of oil in a formulation would be beneficial...that is although it may interfere slightly with the cross linking process, it does not halt it completely...and the benefit derived from the addition of the oil would outweigh the slight negative effect on durability...in other words a good trade off....So, I don’t think you can say categorically that a product with some oil in it does not cross link...it's just that the process may not be as complete as it could have been without the oil. Also, we would not want "complete" cross linking to occur as then it would be "like paint"...very hard and could chip, fade and peel, much like those acrylic coatings of a decade ago that caused so much trouble. They really cured hard."

---------------------------------------->If the oil interferes even slightly with the crosslinking and decreases the "much sought after durability" that people seek, why include it in a formulation? What benefit does it have in a polymer formulation? I don't agree with the "complete crosslinking" statement as the physical properties of a final cured polymer depend more on which ones are used to begin with. Not every polymer that is completelly crosslinked is hard, brittle, chips, fades,etc. Different polymers have different properties. Selection is important. If an oil is added in order to attain some desirable properties at the expense of durability, it sounds like someone better go back to the benchtop.......

Hey, DK, good to see you. I too would like to know what Mr. Chemist's thoughts are on what you've pointed out. It raises some interesting questions. (Never heard of air undergoing a chemical change when sped up or pressurized)

Originally posted by BW
I agree completely. It puts me off when people think all that matters are the results. But as evidenced above, knowing why things work, what things are made of, etc, can save time and improve results.

Werd. What I've experienced is that when a product may not stand on its own merits, we suddenly hear, "It's not important what's in it or why it works, it just does!" Or, when durability sucks we hear, "I don't care how durable it is, I wax my car every 25 minutes!" Or, when durability is awesome, we hear, "Yeah, but the optics suck."

You know, somewhere I've got a Golfer's Excuse Towel... I should make a detailer's excuse towel...

[BillNorth]

It seems like Mr. Chemist is avoiding DK's post. Come on Mr., you seem to know quite a bit. Please enlighten us!

Bill. (biting my tongue and trying very hard to be nice)

[4DSC]

Play nice everybody....


Keep the sarcasm down and don't start arguing or try to show one another up - we've had enough of that already!

[DETAILKING]

Originally posted by Cal
Mr. Chemist

You said:


Does this mean I should steer clear of "ye-olde" Klasse All-In-One which I just applied to my baby today? On the bottle it says:
'It polishes to "WET-LOOK" shine and locks into the paint, seals and protects with an elastic non-chip, shrink-proof, heat and scratch resistant acrylic finish.'

You've got me worried, but please bear with me and be kind... I'm only an apprentice and may have misunderstood.

Happy driving!
Cal

Don't worry, KLASSE AIO is safe for your paint. The first acrylics were nothing more than floor wax. They where SO durable, they would build up over time and yellow with UV light exposure. That gave acrylics a bad rap and polymers too as they were widely introduced over the past 5 yrs.

Hope this helps!