Questions For White Car Owners…. (long) - Page 2

Intermezzo · 02-06-03, 09:44

Quote:

Originally posted by stuart hicks
Layers of Zaino Like clear coats need to be cleaned. I would use DACP or even p-40( PRO) before I would use any clay though. Even the mildest clay properly lubricated leaves some light marring p-40 and DACP dont. I Think Zaino got us on the Clay thing too much when often we should use a cleaner instead.

Shouldn't the claying come before the cleaning/polishing steps? I was always under the impression (from what I've read as well as experienced) that compounding doesn't do much for embedded contaminants?

stuart hicks · 02-06-03, 10:15

I have been a professional detailer for eleven years now and I like many pros have a different perspective on clay and it's place in the detailers arsenal.

To remove scratches, acid rain, oxidation etc. I use I high speed rotary. Any contaimanants would be removed with this process as well. The clay was always used as something to remove overspray. Often I would get calls from painters that wanted me to clay 30 or 40 cars that had paint on them from a paint job at an apartment complex. Sure it left some very light marring but it was a lot better than a car full of overspray. .

So a few years ago when people like clay majic and others started putting out clays for the retail market I was confused about what the purpose was. To make your car feel smooth? Any smoothnes is at the expense of light marring that was usally covered up with fillers and glazes, but people really took to this idea. That same smoothness can be had by using a rotory properly followed by the right combo of polishes glazes and pads in the right order then topped with a 22 pound orbital buffer.

So why sell something to people that is going to give them a false sense of professionalism? Now don't get me wrong I sometimes use the clay on my white 300zx on the rear facia where the soot from the muffler embeds into the paint. But beyond that Its just and paint overspray removal product. I cringe everytime I see some new vette use that stuff in order to prep their brand new car because i know the light marring it leaves behind. If you don't have a rotory you not going to fully get it out.

TortoiseAWD · 02-06-03, 11:31

Quote:

Originally posted by stuart hicks
If I was seeing this residual dirt with my white car it must be present on my other cars too. Thats why I always use a cleaner wax as a topper over layers of Zaino. So far so good using Powershine and Mothers products over Zaino and Finish First.

Perhaps I'm misreading, but you use a cleaner wax on top of Zaino? Wouldn't the mild abrasives or chemical cleaners strip the Z layers, leaving only the protection left by the one-step cleaner? I was under the impression that abrasive-free "non-cleaner" waxes (P21S/S100, Souveran, etc.) should be used as sealant toppers to preserve the sealant protection . . .

Quote:

I cringe evertime I see some new vette use that stuff in order to prep their brand new car because i know the light marring it leaves behind. If you don't have a rotory you not going to fully get it out.

I'm going to have to politely disagree here . . . IMO, a rotary is not required to remove swirls, or the light marring left by clay. The PC, or even hand application of the correct products will do the job (albeit with much more time invested, and possibly multiple passes).

Tort

stuart hicks · 02-06-03, 01:11

I'm just trying to point out that many people who don't want to use any type of cleaner on their car because of abrasiveness think nothing of using clay which is at least as abrasive.

The problem with clay is not that so much the light marring all over your car but the one or two deeper scratches you will eventually get from removing a contaimanant and then rubbing it in to your car again.

This is similar to the type of scratching you get from a California Water Blade. Again not big scratches all over the car, but after a few uses you may find one or two scrapes.

These could be avoided by using cleaners that remove and dissolve dirt and light contaminants in lieu of clay

stuart hicks · 02-06-03, 01:30

My point with Zaino is that like a Clear coat the Zaino needs cleaning.

I thought this thread would help people see my point.

On a white car that has layers of Zaino, dirt will often embed itself into the layers.

If you try Just Zaino you can't get the all dirt out. The dirt that does come out did so only after using too much presure. Don't get me wrong the Zaino is still there (tight beads are still present) but it is contaiminated with embeded dirt.

Because of this I started using cleaner waxes to remove the embeded dirt. I thought this may remove the layers too, but to my delight the tight little beads continued.

If this dirt is seen on the white cars it must be present on the others colors as well but I'm just not seeing it.

Just becasue Zaino is there doesn't mean it doesn't become contaiminated with dirt. If the cleaner wax had stripped the Zaino that would be fine beacuse I don't want to use it if it holds dirt that can't be cleaned without removing it. But Luckily I found you can clean this stuff without removing it.

Intermezzo · 02-06-03, 01:30

Stuart,

Good points. I personally do not have a problem with using a compound on a new car. But using a rotary on a new car? Isn't that a bit harsh? Also, if you plan on using a rotary to remove embedded contaminants every time it's needed (except of course when you spot clay the rear facia of your ZX), wouldn't you be hitting your car with the rotary 1-2 times a year? How long would it be till you remove 0.3mil of clear?

Jngrbrdman · 02-06-03, 01:43

Just because the paint beads doesn't mean that there is anything on it other than clear coat. It has been pointed out in the past that a freshly painted car will bead water with nothing more than a clear coat. I've learned that I can't rely on water reaction on the surface to tell me when a product is still there.

stuart hicks · 02-06-03, 01:45

I dont recommend using a rotory on a new car at all. Although on my own cars I like to wetsand the orange peel so I do use it myself.

You can use a glaze with a high speed rotory at 1000 rpms and not remove any paint at all, but instead smooth out the paint you have..

I have several cars I've done this to for over 10 years now and they look better than new.

P.S. Intermezzo let me apologize for taking your thread into a different direction than what I think you intended. Good luck in finding the solution to your white car dilemma

Intermezzo · 02-06-03, 01:56

Quote:

Originally posted by stuart hicks
P.S. Intermezzo let me apologize for taking your thread into a different direction than what I think you intended. Good luck in finding the solution to your white car dilemma

Oh no problem at all! Your views are sometimes a bit contrarian to what most ppl here on Autopia view as gospel, but that's what makes your posts interesting.

Quote:

Originally posted by stuart hicks
I dont recommend using a rotory on a new car at all. Although on my own cars I like to wetsand the orange peel so I do use it myself.
You can use a glaze with a high speed rotory at 1000 rpms and not remove any paint al all, but instead smooth out the paint you have..

So now I'm confused. Should I or shouldn't I use a rotary on my sister's new car? You tell me not to, but then you say using a rotary with a product like IHG will do a great job of removing contaminants without shaving off any clear. Will it remove contaminants to the point of being completely invisible?

Also, earlier you were saying I should try something like Pro's P-40 or DACP. Now you're saying I should use a low abrasive glaze? Did you mean to say hand application when you were referring to DACP and P-40?

stuart hicks · 02-06-03, 02:35

I think what you are now using the clay for falls into the appropriate catagory. The clay is the way to go for contaiminants that can not only be felt but also seen like overspray or soot from an exhaust.

The high speed with a glaze idea is for a general car with a light roughness to it with no specific visible contaiminants. I don't think the high speed would work in your case to your satisfaction without using P-40 or DACP. Both would require follow up applications of glazes then waxes or toppers.

It is a trade off either way but again in your specific case I think the clay is the path of the lesser evil. What I was refering to before is people taking a nearly smooth or uncontaminated car and using clay on it when I didn't think they needed to.

If you have any though you can use p-40 by hand and it works well. Keep in mind it leaves a little bit of cloudiness behind that is removed easily with a topper wax.

Keep in mind too that you think you will be able to live with a few rusty particles here and there, but trust me you won't be happy until every particle is gone.

forrest · 02-06-03, 02:54

IM - (this may have been covered in one of the responses to your thread - if so, sorry).

If the surface is smooth after claying, yet the "rust" remains, it's most likely from the blooming of the metal particles. You've removed the protusions, but the stain remains behind.

I would think a light polish would remove the stain.

Intermezzo · 02-06-03, 03:11

Quote:

Originally posted by stuart hicks
Keep in mind too that you think you will be able to live with a few rusty particles here and there, but trust me you won't be happy until every particle is gone.

Oh trust me, I can't live with it at all! It's not even my car and the thought of tiny little rusty contaminants "squatting" on the nice white paint job is really annoying!

Forrest, I'll try that next time I clay.

I'm going to try various claybars as well as Autoint's ABC and see how well each work. It'll probably be at least 6-8 months till I clay the car again so I've got some time to put my materials together. I think the contaminants on the car I did were "Stage II" contaminants (according to Erazer.com) which claying successfully removed, but took more pressure than I normally use.

Thanks again to everyone who posted!

Tony